Author Topic: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!  (Read 7034 times)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2010, 08:19:30 pm »
(edit: this post refers to a couple words since removed by the previous post's author at my request; I'm leaving this here so as to not cause massive temporal paradox anomalies for anyone reading this thread hours later... or maybe just so the line of conversation makes sense)

Good riddance.
No, you should not say that about someone who contributed as much as Machine did, and particularly not after he has already left and not in a position to respond.

I do appreciate that you see us as worthy of trust and respect (and that your vehemence in this is probably due to that very thing; no offense meant), but one aspect of that integrity is recognizing the difference between a community member who was actually deserving of "good riddance" (honestly I can't think of any situations in this community where that's been appropriate, though I have seen them elsewhere on the internet) and a community member who contributed a great deal in his time with us and left under... well, very poor circumstances.  We all make mistakes (Chris and myself too) and we all need grace.

All that said, it's best not to discuss a former community member since they're not around to respond to anything and it's usually not a great subject anyway.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 09:35:25 pm by keith.lamothe »
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2010, 08:32:07 pm »
I apologize, I can edit my original post if you would like?
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2010, 08:51:59 pm »
You didn't actually violate any policy, I don't think, so perhaps "you may not" is not the most accurate way I could have said it.  I would appreciate it personally if you would remove those two words from the end, though.

Anyway, I'm sorry if it came across as me coming down on you for speaking in support of us, it's just a very tricky situation.
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Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2010, 08:57:50 pm »
I wouldn't worry about it -- we're not angry.  But I don't want to set up a wall of flames that would keep him from ever returning.  He was a valuable member of the community, as Keith said.  And one thing to bear in mind is that we only know what happened on the forums.  Yes, there was an unreasonable, overwhelmingly emotional response that showed a lack of trust, and all that sort of thing.  Yes, I was annoyed by that and at odds with him, as well.  But that isn't to say there wasn't something going on in his personal life that had him in an emotionally fragile state.  That's certainly happened to me in the past, and actually when that big argument was happening that was sort of the case for me, actually.

At any rate, I don't want to keep dredging him up to whip on him more; whatever happened, we only have part of the story.  I don't know why he reacted so strongly and emotionally out of the blue after so long of working together with the community and us, but I suspect that it only was partly related to what actually happened on the forums.

Wingflier, I don't want you to feel like we're slapping your wrists, either -- that's not the intent.  I just get the feeling that while a lot of people feel protective toward Arcen (which is awesome, and we're really grateful for), Machine is taking more heat than he should.  People are never more united than when facing a common enemy, and all that, but in my mind he was never an enemy at all, and we shouldn't retroactively paint him as such, accidentally or no.

Now it sounds like I'm slapping your wrist again, but that's really not what I mean.  I'm just trying to explain my thinking, and why I defend him.  Part of it's just my nature, and my own personal history.  I'm exceedingly aggressive (in some senses of the word -- mainly that I don't back down when challenged, not that I ever challenge others) mixed with exceedingly empathetic, and that puts me in odd situations sometimes.  As a kid it meant I never backed down from bullies, but I was never actually ever able to hit one in a fight; I always pulled my punches at the end, because I just couldn't bear to hit them even though I hated them with an extreme intensity.  It would have been worse than getting hit myself, and the few times I did actually hurt someone accidentally, it haunted me for long after.

I never hated machine, and I wasn't even that angry, despite being exasperated and annoyed.  But it's sort of that same situation again, where after all is said and done I feel really bad for how it turned out for his end, rather than for what happened on mine.  And I feel a bit ashamed of my own behavior, despite the fact that neither Keith nor I did what machine was accusing us of.  But, I did react  to his baiting with more aggression than I should have (again similar to what happened with bullies as a kid for me), and that's something I'd thought I'd grown out of.  He wasn't even a bully, he was legitimately trying to help.

Well, anyway, the whole situation basically sucked, and it still gives me a twinge every time I see his name in bug reports and such.  In the end, while I really appreciate how much support that conflict has made people give us, it's one of those things where I just can't tolerate when people are slamming him about it, especially in his absence.

That was a bit more soul-searching of a post than I'd intended, a good sign that I'm very tired. ;) Christopher J hasn't been sleeping well lately, and that's made this week very challenging for me and my wife.  Anyway, now you have a bit more insight into my paradoxical nature, and why I don't like it when people insult machine.
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2010, 09:31:29 pm »
Don't worry I don't take any of it personally.  I made the post knowing full well that it may upset you guys and the community, but I thought it needed to be said.  I do appreciate what Machine did for this game, just like I appreciate what anybody does, because it's a wonderful game and worthy of our support.  However, my philosophy is this:  You can spend your whole life building a house, and burn it all down with 1 match.

I don't want people to get the impression that you guys handled the situation wrong because you didn't.  Maybe that's the most unsettling part of it all, that we lost such a valued community member over something that wasn't even under our control.  Controversial changes are going to occur, that's true for any game, or any game worth playing; but when something like this happens it shakes us all to our core, and makes us wonder what we could have done differently.

I'm not portraying anybody as the bad guy here, I just don't want there to be any misplaced sense of guilt on ANYBODY in this community (including and especially you two).  I just want to make it clear that you are doing the right thing, and that sometimes events like this occur.  All you can do is pick yourself back up and keep on moving.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2010, 09:36:00 pm »
I just want to make it clear that you are doing the right thing, and that sometimes events like this occur.  All you can do is pick yourself back up and keep on moving.
My thoughts exactly :)
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Offline KingIsaacLinksr

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2010, 09:38:06 pm »
Heh, @Wingflier, "However, my philosophy is this:  You can spend your whole life building a house, and burn it all down with 1 match."  Truer words were never spoken before on this subject.  :)

Personally am glad you balanced the minor factions, always loved the flavor they brought to the game, and I guess I like saying "Oh S***!!!" everytime one came around ;).

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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2010, 09:39:42 pm »
Marauders Maraud ;)

I'm guessing the buzz bombs are in for at least a modest nerf at some point soon, but it does seem like they're not too far off the desired balance at this point.
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Offline Suzera

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2010, 10:31:45 pm »
Personally, I think Arcen has the framework and concepts for a good game, but until the last week or two, the mathematical balance had been completely shot in a very obvious manner which was really dragging the entire thing down into a small set of what it could be. It was that way back when I first quit too, but back then you were still doing the bonus vs individual ships and the shield mechanic, and balancing that would have been HELL so it was at least a little understandable since changing stuff like in a remotely easy manner would have required redoing a lot of the core mechanics too. You did end up redoing all of those before I looked at AIW again and then started balancing them to at least some degree of equality and usefulness after some light math posts though soooo...

No permanent game-quitting complaints now really as long as the balancing is followed through on. It was a really huge part of the reason I quit as soon as I did the first time and was one of the biggest reasons not to buy I used to tell anyone who would think about buying the game. I told them to try the demo if they were interested though because it is a bit different and you can have fun with it, but cautioned against buying before trying because it was somewhat degenerate. When the first balance pass is done I may have to see about actively bringing people into playing with me when there is a good case for it being less degenerate in strategy and choice, because I would have felt bad to recommend buying the game in the really old god-Space-Plane days (among other totally broken things). Or get some old players to return maybe. I know a few of those.

I could really go for a super-blitz mode that is two to four times as fast as the current blitz though. Low planet count maps just aren't the same depth, despite having a game length closer to what I want. Setting the speed to +10 stutters too much. :(

Offline Echo35

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2010, 12:20:25 am »
I resumed my new game I had started in .49 with Human Marauders turned on. Yeah, a few of them came in along with some AI and completely wiped out my far larger and much higher power fleet and planet and started making a run at my home world before I rage quit. Definitely adding them to my "Do Not Play" list along with Neinzul Enclaves and the Spire Colonies.

On a side note, don't listen to all the QQ Chris, I personally love the direction AI War has been going. If you guys really want to see an amazingly bad community, go look at the League of Legends forums. ::)

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2010, 04:35:43 am »
Personally, I think Arcen has the framework and concepts for a good game, but until the last week or two, the mathematical balance had been completely shot in a very obvious manner which was really dragging the entire thing down into a small set of what it could be. It was that way back when I first quit too, but back then you were still doing the bonus vs individual ships and the shield mechanic, and balancing that would have been HELL so it was at least a little understandable since changing stuff like in a remotely easy manner would have required redoing a lot of the core mechanics too. You did end up redoing all of those before I looked at AIW again and then started balancing them to at least some degree of equality and usefulness after some light math posts though soooo...

No permanent game-quitting complaints now really as long as the balancing is followed through on. It was a really huge part of the reason I quit as soon as I did the first time and was one of the biggest reasons not to buy I used to tell anyone who would think about buying the game. I told them to try the demo if they were interested though because it is a bit different and you can have fun with it, but cautioned against buying before trying because it was somewhat degenerate. When the first balance pass is done I may have to see about actively bringing people into playing with me when there is a good case for it being less degenerate in strategy and choice, because I would have felt bad to recommend buying the game in the really old god-Space-Plane days (among other totally broken things). Or get some old players to return maybe. I know a few of those.

I could really go for a super-blitz mode that is two to four times as fast as the current blitz though. Low planet count maps just aren't the same depth, despite having a game length closer to what I want. Setting the speed to +10 stutters too much. :(

Imo, I am not interested in blitz mode at all :P

As for the balance... after the change to unity and armor, it was a bit crazy, but expected. Its noe getting very good :)
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Offline Wingflier

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2010, 07:10:19 am »
I resumed my new game I had started in .49 with Human Marauders turned on. Yeah, a few of them came in along with some AI and completely wiped out my far larger and much higher power fleet and planet and started making a run at my home world before I rage quit. Definitely adding them to my "Do Not Play" list along with Neinzul Enclaves and the Spire Colonies.

On a side note, don't listen to all the QQ Chris, I personally love the direction AI War has been going. If you guys really want to see an amazingly bad community, go look at the League of Legends forums. ::)
Consequently, I wrote them all a goodbye letter a few days ago, in light of moving on to a superior game.

Considering it's what is commonly considered a 'QQ thread', and that it pretty much slams the community, it's amazing that it has received over 200 upvotes.  I guess we're not the only ones who feel this way :D

http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=394817

Anyway, I really do appreciate the AI War community, more than I can express in words.  Mature discussion is a rare pleasure in gaming forums these days, and I cherish it as a gift.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 07:13:15 am by Wingflier »
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Offline Suzera

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2010, 09:18:47 am »
Imo, I am not interested in blitz mode at all :P

Well it wouldn't be for you obviously! Quite a few people I've talked about the game to balked at 5-6 hour long games, but would at least try it when I told them the shortcut that used to exist to win reliably in an hour or two.

Actually. I think the speed problem is more related to build rate now that I think about it a bit. Blitz and normal could really do with building twice (4x for blitz) as fast for half (1/4 for blitz) price, AI waves and reinforcements twice (4x for blitz) as fast etc like the damage rate and speed are. Then it would be really blitzy with AI waves coming every few minutes and ships pouring out of every crack in the galaxy like some kind of space Total Annihilation.

I wonder if giving the AI a handicap increases their wave speed... If they're twice as large that's not very useful since that's what I set the difficulty for. Twice as fast would be great though. I suppose at worst there is +100 handicap + 2x wave frequency modifier.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 09:36:49 am by Suzera »

Offline NickAragua

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2010, 10:48:01 am »
RE: Marauders

How could people possibly think they weren't difficult? I mean, those bombs would easily wipe out a clump of unattended triangle units, while the frigates (if unattended) could easily take out your command station or a large number of turrets. Every time they come down to a system of mine during a fight, I always have to get my guys out of there, then bring in the bombers to clean up frigates after the buzz bombs have done their damage. Did I miss some incredibly easy way of dealing with them that everyone knows that I don't?

Offline Elukka

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Re: AI War Beta 4.051 Released!
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2010, 10:57:11 am »
In the previous version my defense fleet of primarily Mk1 ships pretty much just destroyed the buzz bombs before they hit anything. The frigates killed a bunch of my ships but not enough to make them anything but a minor annoyance. I can't recall the marauders ever managing to do anything significant in my games.