ARS, bonus ships, usefulness, costs... random thoughts

[PineappleSam]

SBs don't really have armor. That's not why they are really good anyway. It's because they nullify the weakness of high damage/low health ships and compact the amount of useful damage bonuses for the AI down to whatever SBs are so everything else is relatively painless.

Ah, I thought that the armour inhibitors stop force-fields from working... perhaps I'm thinking of something entirely different?

Either way, even if the example is a little off the general idea is still there

[Suzera]

Oh hey, you're right. I was thinking of the armor ROTTER for some reason. I don't see those the armor inhibitors often though. Being a bit useless 1/100 of the time doesn't make them terrible though. Do any AIs even heavily use armor inhibitors?

[Vinraith]

Oh hey, you're right. I was thinking of the armor ROTTER for some reason. I don't see those the armor inhibitors often though. Being a bit useless 1/100 of the time doesn't make them terrible though. Do any AIs even heavily use armor inhibitors?

Shield Ninny's generally have either a booster or an inhibitor in every system, but then they're also an easier AI type. I tend to think of things like inhibitors as "terrain" more than units, I think they serve their purpose well enough.

[Suzera]

Getting around a shield ninny using armor inhibitors isn't too hard if you want to pick SBs at the start. Don't pick it, or if it randoms, reroll the game until there isn't a shield ninny if you don't want to deal with it.

[Vinraith]

Getting around a shield ninny using armor inhibitors isn't too hard if you want to pick SBs at the start. Don't pick it, or if it randoms, reroll the game until there isn't a shield ninny if you don't want to deal with it.

Eh, to me the whole point of randoms is having that kind of thing blow up in your face.

[Suzera]

Getting around a shield ninny using armor inhibitors isn't too hard if you want to pick SBs at the start. Don't pick it, or if it randoms, reroll the game until there isn't a shield ninny if you don't want to deal with it.

Eh, to me the whole point of randoms is having that kind of thing blow up in your face.

Hence "if you don't want to deal with it". I won't tell anyone if you reroll the map though.

[Vinraith]

Getting around a shield ninny using armor inhibitors isn't too hard if you want to pick SBs at the start. Don't pick it, or if it randoms, reroll the game until there isn't a shield ninny if you don't want to deal with it.

Eh, to me the whole point of randoms is having that kind of thing blow up in your face.

Hence "if you don't want to deal with it". I won't tell anyone if you reroll the map though.

And I'm not saying I wouldn't, of course. I would, however, feel guilty enough for picking SB's that I'd feel like getting a shield ninny was appropriate karma. 

[PineappleSam]

I'm not saying that it would be impossible to get around the inhibitors with them, I'm just saying that the game would recognise that using them would be harder than using a ship that doesn't care if its armour is reduced and so when you capture that ARS the game would put a much lower weighting on the SB's.

[RCIX]

well, one could say that getting 3k knowledge instead of the original 2k is dumbing down. Or getting all the turret types.. or starting with more starships, etc.

Its a stopgap solution at best, ill grant you, and it doesnt address the main issue of the ship imbalances themselves. However, your getting a 'free' 2.5k knowledge out of the deal..

my defenition of dumbing down is reducing the amount of player decision making...

the increase to 3K knowlege was not dumbing down, it was a buff to the player and countered by the increased difficulty of K raiding.

starting with all the starships is dumbing down, and I never liked it, but it was done to promote a different balance where all the starship types were compulsory which is understandable.

I dont see any justification for starting with MK II ships

Bleh, I always hate how users cry "Dumbed Down!" at changes they don't like (which the AI war community is thankfully mostly free of). This is the first post i've seen that explains why though. And could i say: please refrain from using that term. It makes you sound like you're more interested in name-calling than solving the problem, no offense.

[Erathsmus]

+1 to making the bonus ships cheaper. Keeping a player from playing in his/her normal confort zone requires an incentive to do so, therefor the bonus ships need to look like a good idea to get. They are very specialized for the most part, and cannot perform all of the same roles that other ships can do, "acid sprayer", so they needed to be treated as so. Personally I think all bonus ships should have different research requirements due to thier overall effectiveness....Yes someone can say they are all decent, but there are some obvious advantages to having another 200 laser gatlings compared to a handful of chameleons, cost should be equated to how easily they can be induced into the blob mechanic of the gameplay, if they are specialized, make them cheaper.

[Suzera]

They are very specialized for the most part, and cannot perform all of the same roles that other ships can do, "acid sprayer", so they needed to be treated as so. Personally I think all bonus ships should have different research requirements due to thier overall effectiveness....Yes someone can say they are all decent, but there are some obvious advantages to having another 200 laser gatlings compared to a handful of chameleons, cost should be equated to how easily they can be induced into the blob mechanic of the gameplay, if they are specialized, make them cheaper.

The problem in this case is that the cost problem is not metal/crystal, which I think is what you are implying. The biggest cost problems of getting a useless ship are the entirely finite resources, and then the one you value more preciously in real life.

Cost 1) Knowledge. It is finite per game. This is tied into AIP being precious. 3k knowledge is 20 AIP (at least). 6k to get mk 3 is 40 AIP. You can't get that AIP back (data centers don't count because those are ALSO finite and act as an AIP reduction cap per game, not a resource. the resource spent to get that reduction cap is time though). The cost of a mk 3 ship is more or less 40 AIP. If the power of the ship doesn't justify +40 AIP, you don't get it.

Cost 2) AIP. You spend 20 AIP just to take the planet. If you wanted the mk 3 ship ANYWAY this is a non-factor because you would have just taken a different planet to get the 20 AIP of knowledge.

Cost 3) Time. It takes time to take the planet. It takes time to get there. It takes time to harvest the knowledge. It then takes time to leave if you're not staying. I assume you are going to die at some point and/or have to work sometimes, or just get bored of the slog, so this is important.

Cost 4) Everything else you didn't unlock instead. If something else is better, you should have unlocked that instead.

If too many ships are too narrow in scope, the chance that all those prices you pay are wasted for no gain increases, or at least not a comparable one. Ideally, all ships would be worth at LEAST +40 AIP in ANY situation and better than default unlocks in most situations, but can then be better in a more focused manner beyond that. For optimal gameplay, many people are probably way undervaluing AIP assuming my math and experience with non-floor AIP are correct.

Nukes are an example. Nukes are never worth their AIP unless you're screwing around or entirely desparate for an instant kill of stuff about to blow up your HW you can't stop. A useless-for-your-game-situation ARS ship can't even blow up an entire planet in a pinch.