AI War Beta 4.038 Released!

[mecharm]

Just throwing in my 2 cents;

- First of all, I love the Spire. The whole story-driven action, the new toys...sheer awesomeness,

- second, did anyone actually manage to survive with the Spire story arch running?

I've just lost my 4th LotS game. Always the same setting: Two 7 AI's, everything goes like hot knife in butter until the Nth wave of Spire Hunters come and cuddly hug  my planets.

Thanks to the 20+ hours I've put into the Spire, I now managed to build up until the 4th colony ship, when the final Spire Hunter team happened.

As of now, I (but this is probably just me, so please don't take it as whining, only my impression) just don't see that it's possible to use the Spire as means of winning the game. Starting with the first attack your only trying to survive the next wave. This would be an awesome and terrifying element (and frankly I do enjoy the fear the threat meter causes...), but since the wave just keep getting stronger and the aid the Spire gives (those few ships simply cannot provide enough firepower) is simply not enough, you are bound to lose.

I understand this is the point of the Spire story arch, yet I feel that the difficulty is just simply too much.

Anyway, time to start the 5th run, thanks for all the fun guys!

[Winter Born]

Ok I am confused. Using the Civ Leader Option I get up to a 10 AIP reduction per hour by ignoring them. What happens if I destoy one or capture one of the Civ Leaders?   

Spire Civ Leaders are my friends.    They all reduced my AIP at 1 min    and at 1 hr into game so far

Mantis  http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=1502

(0004140)
x4000 (administrator)
Nov 21, 2010 7:50 am

 Yes, this is the intended behavior. I do need to update the tooltip, though. 
 
(0004144)
wyvern83 (reporter)
Nov 21, 2010 9:19 am
edited on: Nov 21, 2010 10:01 am

 Was this a last minute change? because the 4.037 release notes says the opposite. (that they raise AI Progress)
This will help with the massive gate raiding and planet taking the Fallen Spire Campaign encourages.
Even if it is just a little it is much appreciated.

 4.037
 A new Minor Faction has been added for Light of the Spire: Spire Civilian Leaders
Up to 10 Spire Civilian Leader Outposts are scattered throughout the galaxy in the control of the AI. Against their will, every hour each outpost increases the AI Progress by 1. You have the choice of either destroying these outposts for colloduing with the AI, or freeing the outposts by capturing the planet from the AI. When freed, each of these outposts will gratefully decrease the AI Progress by one every hour.

[Ozymandiaz]

I am gonna try a new spire game as well, and I have spent quite some time preparing to build my "fortress". I got 19 planets cut off from the rest of the galaxy by one choke point.

That choke point has (online and operational) a grav drill, 3 Ion Cannon Mk I, 2 Ion Cannon Mk II, 1 Ion Cannon Mk III, 1 Ion Cannon MK IV, 1 Ion Cannon MK V, 2 Orbital Mass Drivers, Radar Jammer MK II, Armor Booster + Inhibitor, Super Fortress, Black Hole Machine, 5 Mk I Fortress, full complement of MK II and MK III Beam/Laser/MLRS turrets, tones of mines, 5 Force Field MK III and 4 MK II over my Military Command Station, Full Complement of Missile Turret Mk I, Full Sniper Turret, Full Spider Turret. Full complement of Tractor Mk II, Full MK turrets in general as well (except some MLRD and Laser I got at my Factory Mk IV system).

I got Eco MK II and MK III stations providing a hefty economy, and I got 3 Zenith Space Time Manipulators in the grav drill system effectively doubling my own ships speed and reducing opponents to speed 8.

I have angered the AI up to 500 AIP (two 7.6 AI's), and I got a knowledge buffer of some ~30000.


And I am about to build the first refugee colony. Now to see how long I last :D:D

[superking]

lol, keep us posted, that sounds like a promising stratergy

[TheDeadlyShoe]

I really dun like that once I've finished the first spire hub I'm doomed to steadily increasing waves no matter what i do.  I thought it was discretely based on my progress in the spire plot.  Game length can really vary on map type/size/ai type/difficulty so ;(

[Spikey00]

S blade spawners are a great idea in theory, but they're currently underpowered.  There are a few problems that I'm seeing, mainly:

1)  The AI of blade spawners lack of a quick reaction (this was reported on MantisBT) , often mean inefficient reaction time, and thus they waste some time in attempting to attacking a moving unit.
2)  They're more like long-ranged artillery units with destructible munitions; however, because of that, they lack of a withstanding presence.  The blades themselves disappear under fire, and as soon as they get in one or two hits, they're already destroyed, and that doesn't necessarily mean a kill.
3)  A lot of objects are blade immune.

I would like to see that the blades themselves be given more HP and a slightly lengthened lifespan, as this would probably make up for the slow-reacting AI, and give them a greater presence.  I'm also hoping to see that blades also be stored within the host if it's not releasing them, up to some higher cap than what is possible if it were to constantly unload.

EDIT:  also... please mute the explosion sound effect for the blades--it is definitely annoying me.

[orzelek]

Ozy I see you are prepared for anything

One note tho - get more missile turrets. These are one of not many that can outrange most of things that will attack you. That radar jammer Mk II should compensate for this tho

I had a bit different idea for this - to use 2-3 planets with large wh-wh distances to kind of weaken the attack with long ranged stuff before facing them later.

[Ozymandiaz]

Ozy I see you are prepared for anything

One note tho - get more missile turrets. These are one of not many that can outrange most of things that will attack you. That radar jammer Mk II should compensate for this tho

I had a bit different idea for this - to use 2-3 planets with large wh-wh distances to kind of weaken the attack with long ranged stuff before facing them later.

Idea approved, Missile Turret Mk II and III full complement now

With all these defenses my fleet ships suffer knowledge wise, but according to my previous experience, the Spire ships will make up for most of that. And I also unlocked the spire starship to have a heavy hitter along with the spire ship (and to boost them). And the zenith starship is not bad either

I also got anti-armor ships form a ADR, they might be able to make a useful contribution in defense as well.

(One reason to get the laser and beams is also the spire modular ships )

[SRombauts]

That is realy impressive ozy!
This is much more defenses than what I've ever seen in that game for now 

[Lancefighter]

So I see why the spireships are generally unrepairable... well, because they are suicide ships >.>

[keith.lamothe]

Thanks for the various feedback on the fallen-spire stuff.

Just want to clarify, since internet communications often make it so easy to misunderstand, but the current fallen-spire balance is not final.  It's not even close to final.  We've got til the end of December 3rd, at least, before the first official release of this stuff (and can still make changes on the 6th, but if that winds up being the delivery date then there's not much time to test).  In order to get things from where they are now to a good balance, I need feedback.  Preferably feedback without wailing and gnashing of teeth (it's a beta, you're just the first mice to hit the traps), but I understand if I've provoked a bit of that.

Ok, carry on

Right now all I'm hearing is:

1) It's excruciatingly hard, even on Diff 7 with otherwise mild settings.
2) The idea of the AI attacks continuing to escalate regardless of player actions after building first city hub is demoralizing (though do note that the rate of "resources" the AI gets to launch those attacks never goes up except directly based on player action).
3) Some people find this entertaining, most do not, and even those that do think it's just too hard.

If it's really what's necessary, I can change the event-attack mechanic to not escalate (or at least have some kind of story-stage-based ceiling on the escalation).  I can also continue to tune down the per-minute increments, though I'm thinking that there are problems unrelated to the frequency/magnitude of the attacks.

Another thing I'm thinking about is having the habitation centers (and perhaps the city hubs themselves) contribute a pretty substantial metal and crystal production to your economy.  In theory I can also ratchet down the fairly insane costs of the various Spire structures/ships, but I'd prefer to avoid that since it is supposed to be a larger scale of stuff than you normally operate at.  I'd like to have each city hub increase your metal/crystal storage cap, but I'm not sure how Chris would feel about that.

Anyway, please operate under the assumption that if it's broken or otherwise simply-not-fun, we will do what we need to do to fix it

[orzelek]

When you read Ozy's preparations report you can get an impressions that this should be sufficient... we'll see how he fares.

But if doing something that.. turret defense like would be strict requirement for winning a spire plot that I would think it's excessive

Also mantis balance issue from 10th seems to suggest that this may not be winnable at this stage.

I had nasty plans with X-map but with spire city distance of 3 - that won't work.

Question: that special waves require warp gate of which kind to spawn?
The main idea would be that you could try to get some limited control over attack directions by removing warp gates from planets next to your borders. It's always less AIP than need to capture them. This could also be used to delay attack - take them from one side first and other ones will arrive later due to lack of warp gates in nearby vicinity.

[Lancefighter]

Last night i went in a new game for ~8h (about 10h realtime >.> ). So far, my only issue is that there is no way to defend against the spire waves WITHOUT your main fleet being there to greet them. simply nothing else can counter that group of ships that is being spawned.

Perhaps I need to pick up a few golems just to have sitting around in defensive positions, or start to separate my fleet a tad.. but I'm just not really sure how else I am supposed to deal with it without my fleet in position.

[mecharm]

Yeah, I had the same problem.

I had to use all my available resources to hold the line (I didn't dare to face a rush without at least 300+ ships in the choke-point), but as soon as the Spire cities started spreading around, it was simply impossible to offer fleet support everywhere...

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, the idea is that after the first few attacks (which are so close together that they kind of feel like one, I imagine), you should have to focus your attention on defending against them.

On the other hand, you're supposed to have enough time in-between to build back up, and take a crack at the next "offensive" (recovery) mission.  From what I'm hearing, this is possible to some extent, but it's more than a bit tight.  Hopefully having the hab centers (and perhaps city hubs) provide a substantial economic boost will make that rebuild-and-attack proposition more feasible.

And no, having some massive single-chokepoint with massive turret defenses is not supposed to be a requirement   But currently it probably is, until the next balance changes at least.

And yes, the spacing requirements of the cities (and the requirement to have at least 2 wormholes on a planet with a hub) had as one of its intentional goals the prevention of being able to seal off one branch of an X-map and do everything you need to there.  As it is you may be able to accomplish 5 cities on one branch of a 120-planet x-map.

Anyway, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense to have a maximum armada size per story stage (so maybe 50,000 points per city hub, etc), since as orzelek noted the game's existing units and whatnot simply aren't designed to handle the kind of sledgehammer-blows that come from a 400,000+ point armada.  Maybe we'll be able to do something about that, but until we do it'd be better to recognize the limitation.

That could result in winning-via-spire-plot suddenly becoming far easier than intended, dunno.  Anyway, still thinking about it.