Author Topic: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!  (Read 12247 times)

Offline Kron

  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • Not an AI.
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2010, 02:57:34 am »
I'd still like to point out that the "middling" Zenith Golems now have an ultimate construction cap of around 3 (no matter how large the map is, meaning they can be as rare as occuring once every 40 planets)... while the Spirecraft have a scaling cap since the concentration of rare-mineral asteroids is constant no matter the size of the galaxy.

So despite being less powerful than Spirecraft, Golems can still be rarer / harder to field. This just sounds wrong to me; it's like a fleetship that has a higher Mark III cap than a Mark II one.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 03:00:31 am by Kron »
Time travel in the classic sense has no place in rational theory, but temporal distortion does exist on the quantum level, and more importantly it can be controlled.
- Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "For I Have Tasted the Fruit"

Offline snrub_guy

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2010, 04:22:53 am »
I think the idea of having them as non repairable, limited assets is really interesting. I think it will add a more epic feeling to the bigger moments of the game. Because you only get a limited amount, the spirecraft will need to be kept mostly for points in the game where you need an extra push, like MK4 worlds, and CPA defence. Having this massive ship that you commit when you really need it will give these encounters a more impressive feel. Also, knowing when to commit your limited resource ships will add another strategic element to the game.

As far as a comparison of golems is concerned, we haven't seen the spirecraft yet, so it's hard to say how they will affect golems. I'll probably stay out of that one though, as my golem use experience is very limited due to chronic restartitis.

Edit: Fastest loss I've ever experienced- a wave of 80 stealth battleships. Mantis: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=1478

Edit 2: Is there any other reason besides warp jumper A.I, and warp counter guard post that I would get a wave appearing at my worlds NOT at a wormhole? If not I'll report in mantis. AI was neizul youngster or enthusiast (this guy sent the wave), and a stealth master. And don't think it was a guard post- only attacked one world- don't remember the guard posts, but the wave warning was like 10 minutes for some reason.

Edit 3: Ok, I think the game just hates me at the moment. That's 3 or 4 losses in a row. Just checking before I mantis this one as well: Should the LotS storyline cause ridiculous attacks when all I've done is survey my homeworld? Just got hit by 500 Mk4 Raptors and a spire starship 40 minutes into the game (like a minute warning to planet ???). Got saves for all of the above, so once I know if these are actually bugs, I'll mantis their asses.

Think I'll stop for the morning...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 06:49:31 am by snrub_guy »

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2010, 09:25:02 am »
On the whole spirecraft versus golems thing:

1. I think that people need to not freak out too much.  People seem to act like we never change our minds based on testing feedback.  I don't know where they get this idea.  If something is massively broken, we'll change it.

2. If golems are underpowered, I haven't really heard much about that (aside from the cursed golem, mainly).  Going back to the old AIP-granting methods isn't something I'm contemplating, as that seemed to be hated by 70% of players or more in my non-scientific polling.  Players are too conservative to risk that much for a golem.

3. I'm open to making further changes to the golems (not this week, but next and after), but I want to keep them distinct from the spirecraft.  For those complaining about them without even having used them lately -- please use them before you complain. ;)

4. As a number of people have pointed out, having the spirecraft be finite is pretty interesting, largely because it encourages a different kind of play.  The tendency to want all ships to follow the same pattern (aka, I can build them and retreat them, or build them and replace them) isn't good.  This adds a third avenue of build them and use them once (maybe twice).

5. As to the worry about having to commonly lose them and rebuild them: that's only even going to be possible with the weakest of the spirecraft, as the stronger spirecraft come from the rarest asteroids.  You'll miss them when they die.  They will be rare.  And most of the more common ones are useful, but nowhere near golem-level.  They're a bit bigger than starships, but single-use.

6. Yes, these are humans-only.  For now.  I imagine that some of the AI waves in the fallen spire that use these will also use the spirecraft.  And I imagine there will be a special AI type for spirecraft, too.  But, in general: like golems, mostly they are human-only.

7. As to concerns about this making the game too easy again, I do share those concerns.  Mostly because this is only in an expansion, and if it's balance well WITH these that means that it's too hard without them, and vice-versa.  I haven't solved this one yet.  Possibly the combination of time cost + material cost will make it all work out, but that remains to be seen in practice.  Possibly the act of building a spirecraft needs to stir up the AI some (making some waves against that planet, etc), but once they are built they are AI-stir-free.  That would make them riskier to get, which is great and more interesting anyway, but then just as useful as a trump card once you have them.

8. My last point for now... The games of AI War are so long that this tends to make people strategically conservative, which I sort of already touched on, but which is also super important to think about.  Golems giving off AIP scared the bejeebs out of a lot of people, to the point they never decided it was worth the risk to use them.  This made them sit there stagnant except for those players that wanted to run around with a big ship (the recent changes have fixed that, but made them less attractive in the process -- they probably do need a buff, but that has nothing to do with spirecraft).  In the case of spirecraft, people just hear "I only get to use it once" and sort of freak out.  Folks are used to being able to continuously repair or rebuild ships, which keeps the opportunity cost of an attack limited to "how much time do I want to spend rebuilding this if my attack fails?"  Here we now have the "is this worth using my spirecraft up for?" opportunity cost, which adds a new element.  If you don't like it, you're not forced to use it.  But I think this game is really going to hit a wall where it can't grow much more if we don't experiment around with different types of strategic mechanics (not just tactical mechanics), and this is my most recent attempt to push the boundaries of the game outwards.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Kron

  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 78
  • Not an AI.
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2010, 10:26:27 am »
I know you guys change your minds! That's why I'm making a noise! :D
Time travel in the classic sense has no place in rational theory, but temporal distortion does exist on the quantum level, and more importantly it can be controlled.
- Academician Prokhor Zakharov, "For I Have Tasted the Fruit"

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2010, 10:31:27 am »
All good.  ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Ozymandiaz

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 813
  • King of kings
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2010, 10:36:15 am »
Lots of nifty stuff to test I see! :)
We are the architects of our own existence

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2010, 10:44:25 am »
Indeed!  I'm planning to have 12 classes of spirecraft, with 5 marks of each, so that's a whopping 60 new ships right there, heh. :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline orzelek

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,096
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2010, 11:42:05 am »
Side note - revamp of golems while could be useful (Armor golem + armor inhibitor = lol) needs to be quite careful. Since when 5+ of these comes to greet your spire friends... difficulty will increase there a bit (or much more).

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2010, 01:10:12 pm »
how exactly are ethe different marks implemented with regard to the asteroids? Will it be purely a matter of 'one asteroid builds one ship', or will mk2+ require multiple asteroids?
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline Invelios

  • Jr. Member Mark III
  • **
  • Posts: 88
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2010, 03:07:45 pm »
All this sounds cool, but I have to ask, are you planning to release anything soon to fix the bug I'm experiencing? It's #0001470, and until it's fixed I can't really play the game at all. I'd like to be able to play this weekend, since I'm finally not being crushed by loads of college homework. I really want to try out the fallen spire minor faction, but I can't if the game won't let me do anything.  :(

Not trying to be mean, but I posted the bug last night and it hasn't even been acknowledged yet. This issue also seems pretty big to me, since it pretty much renders the particular save unplayable.

Offline snrub_guy

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2010, 03:19:30 pm »
Dunno if my edits got lost in the debate, but don't want to clutter up mantis with non issues- are they all things that should be reported or are some mechanics I have missed?

Offline wyvern83

  • Sr. Member Mark II
  • ****
  • Posts: 398
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2010, 03:36:45 pm »
how exactly are ethe different marks implemented with regard to the asteroids? Will it be purely a matter of 'one asteroid builds one ship', or will mk2+ require multiple asteroids?

Remember that the asteroids have rarity values, the more rare ones will likely yield more than more common ones. So in your example of a mk2 needing, say 2 asteroids, using a '2+' grade asteroid would be enough. We'll have to wait and see but I imagine there will be some of this in how it turns out.

@snrub_guy

I'd definitely report #3 and post the save game, they might find it handy to take a look at it. I'd add the save for #1 as well for the same reason.

#2 is likely to have a counter-wave depending on your version if the warning was 10 minutes out. (what version you were running matters though as I think it was a recent change for them to take a bit longer.)

You might be able to check it was yourself, look at your military tab and take a look through your kills, if you find a counter-attack guard post in there, then because you've only attacked one planet you'd know that's what it was.

Offline snrub_guy

  • Full Member Mark II
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2010, 03:52:01 pm »
@snrub_guy

I'd definitely report #3 and post the save game, they might find it handy to take a look at it. I'd add the save for #1 as well for the same reason.

#2 is likely to have a counter-wave depending on your version if the warning was 10 minutes out. (what version you were running matters though as I think it was a recent change for them to take a bit longer.)

You might be able to check it was yourself, look at your military tab and take a look through your kills, if you find a counter-attack guard post in there, then because you've only attacked one planet you'd know that's what it was.

I don't have a save of the 80 battleships, it happened so fast, and autosave is gone now...

There are no counterwave guard posts in my kills. Didn't think to check the stats, I assume this is a bug then. I'll mantis it later on.

Yep, I'll mantis the mk4 raptors too, just checking to see that it wasn't meant to happen cos of having the fallen spire enabled.

Thanks for the advice.

Offline Lancefighter

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,440
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2010, 03:54:07 pm »
ah ok, so its not a matter of x asteroid makes y, its a matter of x is advanced enough to make ymk3
Ideas? Suggestions? Concerns? Bugs to be squashed? Report them on the Mantis Bugtracker!

Author of the Dyson Project and the Spire Gambit

Offline x4000

  • Chris McElligott Park, Arcen Founder and Lead Dev
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,651
Re: AI War Beta 4.037 Released!
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2010, 04:00:22 pm »
how exactly are ethe different marks implemented with regard to the asteroids? Will it be purely a matter of 'one asteroid builds one ship', or will mk2+ require multiple asteroids?

One asteroid builds 1+ ships. No ship can cost more than one asteroid.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!