Author Topic: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0  (Read 2403 times)

Offline Arcain_One

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Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« on: November 01, 2010, 06:40:36 pm »
After only a couple of days I have lost, here it is:

Both expansions, 120 planet, Realistic
Assassin [7 Diff], Starfleet Commander [7 Diff]no auto AI increase
Complex Ship Type, Epic combat, Low ship count
Mods: Schizophrentic, Reveal Random AI Types, No Wave Warning, Cross Planet Waves
Minor Factions: Zenith Devourer, Zenith Dyson Sphere, Zenith Traders, Neinzul Roaming Enclaves, Neinzul Rocketry Corps
Plots on both: Avenger, Hybrid Hives, Advanced Hybrids, Astro Trains

This was my first time playing with the Devourer and Dyson Sphere, and I had not touched the beta before hand, but I did experiment briefly before starting (btw: no guardians with starships off, makes for an easy(er) game, but that has nothing to do with this one). My goal was to achieve the 110 planet achievement by belligerently taking every planet I can get my hands on and weather the storm that comes. Sadly, I didn't get to a point of skipping planets if i could.

I chose the Zenith AutoBomb in the middle, I thought they would be fun to spam mid-game once I had enough resources. The AI started out with MLRS and Zenith Electric Bomber. It started bleak, and bounced lower.

The three planets next to my home world were easy to take without guardians on them, even a MK IV world was very easy to take just starting off, it felt like there was no resistance at all. Then the hybrids came. Turrets are of little use (they don't take down the modular forcefield well). I found that there was two good ways to take care of them: your entire fleet can destroy one in a few seconds (with moderate casualties); or one volley from a ship cap of MK 1-3 Seige Starships will take it out (again in a few seconds). I found myself frequently ferrying my Seige ship (with a transport) to each of my planets to stave off attacks and even then it didn't always work and I spent quite a while constantly rebuilding lost planets.

The next world offered little more challenge than the previous ones seeing that I was raid-sniping guardians/guard posts/anything else with the Seige ships.  The problem was that the command station had 30 hybrid hives on it, which made me retreat more often (but I could count on the fact that none followed me through the wormhole unless they had already targeted the planet I was attacking from). After 3 hours of attacking them to get down to 5 or so I realize that there was more than just a few forcefields over the command station, there was nearly 30, too much for me to take right now so I reloaded a save to where the planet was neutered (except for the warp gate which was heavily shielded) and moved on. I noticed that there were a couple more planets with excess shielding (more than just the 3 near my planets).

The next 2 planets went smoothly, some loss but I rebuild again. In attacking my 7th planet to be a cross planet wave erupted... but didn't, it stayed at 900+ [AI progress 150] threat and nothing happened, a roaming enclave showed up (not the first this game but significant later) but the wave never came. No other waves nor hybrid hives came neither, but I didn't noticed until later when I popped a command station with 170+ enemies still on the planet and no counter attack came, not only that I found an Astro Train not moving on the planet. I reloaded a save and prepared for the CPA.

It came in waves of 100 or so to one planet, my fleet was dwindling to the Zenith Bombers. My forces nearly gone (and not all of the threat were attacking yet) when the roaming enclave came (again). After some failure and reloading I had my Siege ships kill it just before it did any damage. Naturally, I celebrated at having turned a hopeless situation to have a smidge of hope. But there was still 70+ Zenith Bombers when they took the planet.

They conveniently went around my home planet and steamrolled over most of my other planets.
I realized now a few things I should have done differently, maybe that will make a difference. I shall restart from my first save (one second in, as always) and start again. Aside from the glitches, this map is win-able!

===My thoughts===

I still think the planets adjacent to your home world should still have guardians, even just the MK I variety. Its too easy starting off without them.

Seige Starships will take out any large threatening ship. The only thing it can't handle is swarms, which your fleet and turrets should take care of. They almost seem overpowered, they even easily out gun Bomber Starships that seem to be made for the same purpose. Why would you ever use Bomber Starships when you can use Seige Starships?

As my defeat has shown, I also think Zenith Electric Bombers are over powered in the hands of the AI. We get them in scarcely low numbers, they get them by the dozens easily, a few times 100+.

Turrets are quite incapable of dealing with Ultra-Heavy and Structural armor types, otherwise they seem to get the job done on the other kinds of ships: I almost never noticed or payed attention to a wave that came. It was like the waves were not important any more.

I dislike how hybrid have would load up on top of the command stations only on the planets next to mine, and they did this in the dozens. Hopping over would be very easy compared to taking adjacent planets but it would be much harder to defend later.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
In general, the level of complaining is driving Developer-Progress up and we're considering launching a wave ;)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2010, 08:19:39 pm »
Thank you for the feedback :)

Quote
I dislike how hybrid have would load up on top of the command stations only on the planets next to mine, and they did this in the dozens.
And they really like doing things you dislike ;)  They were invented as a dose of straightforward traditional AI and are quite literally programmed to get in your face as much as they can.  You know how human players like to set up massive chokepoints to block off the entire galaxy?  Hybrids love returning the favor ;D  That said, their balance used to be much more on the offensive side and later became much more defensive/build-up because people were getting steamrolled; I want to move them back towards the offensive but I've got other stuff I need to work on right now.

On the Zenith Electric Bombers, I don't know why you're still seeing such huge numbers of those, but Chris is the one behind the wave composition logic so I'll leave that to him.

And the waves get much stronger >= difficulty 8, and much much worse on 9.  We may need to adjust them up a bit on 7 too, though, but in general if you're experienced at the game you should need to bump it up to 7.3 or 7.6 to get a proper challenge.  Though mixing in the hybrids certainly represents a difficulty increase by itself.

As for Sieges and Bombers; yea, Bomber Starships were only very recently made available to human players, and are in need of more balancing.  Sieges are borderline OP but when it comes to dealing with stuff like Hybrids and higher mark (or lots of) guardians, you really need every ounce of "I'm a stupidly big gun" they can give you.

On turrets vs UltraHeavy or Structural, I think it's intended that they not be so good (though have you tried every kind of turret against them?  I haven't checked, but I suspect the heavy beam cannons might be effective), so defending against those takes some other stuff.

On guardians on adjacent planets, I agree that it would be nice to bring them back, but perhaps limited to a few around the command station or something.  At least some kind of "hello, we're here".
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Offline Winter Born

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2010, 10:09:14 pm »
I dislike how hybrid have would load up on top of the command stations only on the planets next to mine, and they did this in the dozens. Hopping over would be very easy compared to taking adjacent planets but it would be much harder to defend later.

Lightning warheads hidden by a cloaker will do the job on those clusters for a small AIP  ;)

Offline Arcain_One

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2010, 10:46:19 am »
I realized that I forgot a small part.

My specs are 2.1ghz, 3gb ram laptop, a year old. I've been playing on the absolute lowest performance profiles and large battles still give me lag. I'm also a little confused about what the higher performance profiles are supposed to do (there must be more than just using more computer power but that's all that I know of right now).

The worst lag is when the Devourer shows up on a AI planet. On mine there is almost no interaction: it doesn't attack anything except for fleet ships (I expected it to decimate my turrets through each pass), and it doesn't stick around long (as the name suggests, I expected it to hunt down, destroy, and consumes my fleet that was on the same planet). It just seems like a big, powerful astro train that does me good instead of the AI, they send all of their consumables to the front line to be destroyed asap.

As for the cluster hives; I was more noting to that they aren't on all planets and having more numbers on the border aggression planets. The Lightning warheads would work to speed up things but if I have to do that for most planets then it might not be worth it, seeing that I'm already looking at well over 20x110 AI progress end game. Anywhere I can afford to not increase it I would like to avoid it.

Now that I understand what the hives were designed to do, I like it (not saying that I didn't like them before ;)). And I also think they should be more aggressive, it adds to how they already feel. I do have a question on behavior though. The AI is more concerned with something elsewhere but the hybrid hives seem to have nothing better to do but procreate, improve, and harass the player. Perhaps the AI designed the hybrids for only this propose? Or better yet, perhaps this is the testing ground for the AIs new kind of weapon that will get released elsewhere after the human threat has been squelched?

Heavy beam cannons do the most damage as far as type against the hybrid hives but they don't do enough to protect my entire empire, but this might be some relief to the colonies that take a lot of time to get to.

I still would like to know about the force field clusters, I haven't seen them again in my second play through.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
In general, the level of complaining is driving Developer-Progress up and we're considering launching a wave ;)

Offline Winter Born

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2010, 12:11:03 pm »
 ;D good quote from Keith

Are you playing with normal ship caps? Thinking of lag here
The lower the performance profile the jerker the movement of things while trying to maintain the overall simulation speed.
If you have a single core machine then both the AI thread and player thread are competing -- dual core splits the AI out onto its own core process.



On the FF clusters -were those Hybrids with FF or regular FF, if regular FF then bug for sure.

The Hybrids are like Riot Starships in that they are configurable. If the FF clusters were all Hybrids then they were all getting the same upgrade for some reason (possible bug in the variety of upgrade terminals.

do you have a savegame?

####################################################
for an early look at Hybrids (this is a page still in development)
http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Hybrid_Hives

some things have changed -- like no longer building turrets -- so this page is out of date to some degree

BTW during beta testing these things were steamrolling us on a regular basis


Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2010, 12:30:05 pm »
Hybrids still build turrets for now but won't in the future.

They also build forcefield generators ;D

Well, if you really really wanted to protect a command station, what would you do? ;)
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Offline Winter Born

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2010, 12:43:54 pm »
Hybrids still build turrets for now but won't in the future.

They also build forcefield generators ;D

Well, if you really really wanted to protect a command station, what would you do? ;)

Nice, thanks for the corrections and insights - I think you and Chris are the only ones that realy know the CoN and new expansion well enough to write the AI-wiki on them. Of course there is a firehose of other stuff already directed your way.

Offline Arcain_One

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2010, 02:03:06 pm »
I believe I have found the cause of the shield spamming.

When my scouts enter into a planet it is reviled my the tachyon guardians, this causes the hybrids on the planet to become alert and do what they need to do, which sometime this means making a dozen or so forcefields. Scout spamming seems to have its consequence now. :P ;)

My strategy to combat this is to send scouts only when I take a planet. This is to get by the tachyon guardians on the current planet I'm working on and to arrive at a planet that has no hybrids on it.
Quote from: keith.lamothe
In general, the level of complaining is driving Developer-Progress up and we're considering launching a wave ;)

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2010, 02:06:03 pm »
Hybrids are actually not coded to care about your scouts at all, they are always active.  Builder-Hybrids sometimes take quite a while to perform certain steps, though, so they may appear inactive.
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Offline Arcain_One

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2010, 02:09:53 pm »
Then it might have been just a coincidence that they reinforced when my scouts were annihilated.

After I proposed the idea I started having second thoughts about it.

I'm slowly learning the nuances of this new game ;D
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 02:53:33 pm by Arcain_One »
Quote from: keith.lamothe
In general, the level of complaining is driving Developer-Progress up and we're considering launching a wave ;)

Offline orzelek

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2010, 04:34:03 pm »
Hybrids are actually not coded to care about your scouts at all, they are always active.  Builder-Hybrids sometimes take quite a while to perform certain steps, though, so they may appear inactive.

So they are the quiet kind that pretends to be harmless....

And then you end up with 17 Mk II neinzul clusters or 3 Mk II beam cannons under dozen of Mk I/II force fileds or set of nasty turrets Mk II under also ton of force fields.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2010, 04:35:35 pm »
Yep ;D

Though the turrets will be going away at some point.
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: Start and Loss: My first run in 4.0
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2010, 06:27:39 pm »
Thank you for the feedback :)

Quote
I dislike how hybrid have would load up on top of the command stations only on the planets next to mine, and they did this in the dozens.
And they really like doing things you dislike ;)  They were invented as a dose of straightforward traditional AI and are quite literally programmed to get in your face as much as they can.  You know how human players like to set up massive chokepoints to block off the entire galaxy?  Hybrids love returning the favor ;D  That said, their balance used to be much more on the offensive side and later became much more defensive/build-up because people were getting steamrolled; I want to move them back towards the offensive but I've got other stuff I need to work on right now.

On the Zenith Electric Bombers, I don't know why you're still seeing such huge numbers of those, but Chris is the one behind the wave composition logic so I'll leave that to him.

And the waves get much stronger >= difficulty 8, and much much worse on 9.  We may need to adjust them up a bit on 7 too, though, but in general if you're experienced at the game you should need to bump it up to 7.3 or 7.6 to get a proper challenge.  Though mixing in the hybrids certainly represents a difficulty increase by itself.

As for Sieges and Bombers; yea, Bomber Starships were only very recently made available to human players, and are in need of more balancing.  Sieges are borderline OP but when it comes to dealing with stuff like Hybrids and higher mark (or lots of) guardians, you really need every ounce of "I'm a stupidly big gun" they can give you.

On turrets vs UltraHeavy or Structural, I think it's intended that they not be so good (though have you tried every kind of turret against them?  I haven't checked, but I suspect the heavy beam cannons might be effective), so defending against those takes some other stuff.

On guardians on adjacent planets, I agree that it would be nice to bring them back, but perhaps limited to a few around the command station or something.  At least some kind of "hello, we're here".

I knew I was missing something early game, so few attacking hybrids :)
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