Author Topic: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!  (Read 10669 times)

Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2010, 01:48:46 pm »
Kind of cross post quoting:

I've already converted all the tracks to 128bit mp3; am I permitted to post the link here?

Is he? :)

We'd prefer not, honestly. While I don't aim to control what you do with any of the assets included with the game, Pablo does have the rights for the music outside of use in the game, and he sells it on iTunes.  So I'd rather not have the mp3s floating around, though it's certainly a patron system with Pablo's music as much as it is for the game itself.

I understand :)
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Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #31 on: October 15, 2010, 01:48:58 pm »
but that in turn means memorizing the hull types, which doesn't seem  remotely intuitive.

I think you'll find them a lot more intuitive as you get used to them.  Most of them are pretty much what you'd expect.  A few, like vampires for instance, are something unusual because it fits more with their nature.  The polycrystal group is just tanks and bombers, which I needed to split out because of the way that fortresses, etc, need to have a penalty against them.  You picked a few of the more unusual examples in your rant, sure, but there is a method to the madness and most are pretty straightforward.  You're always memorizing something, right, whether it's ammo types or what a ship name means, etc.

I see the arguments for the new method- it lets players see the raw numbers and make their own calculations of efficiency, and it is common to most the mainstream rts like warcraft- but I preferred the existing system both because it was a groundbreaking step forward and because it effectively meant there was no NEED to look at stats or armour types. anyway, conservative rant over  :P

Well, I hear you, I really do.  But -- and here's the thing -- often a really good ship for the job would be overlooked in the older system.  AND, when you were attacking bigger structures, starships, etc, the older system was absolutely and completely useless.  It only ever worked for groups of fleet ships versus groups of other fleet ships.

Realistically, when it comes to fleet ships, you only ever have 4-9 options at your disposal, and that's by the end of a game.  And you're facing off against only maybe 6-12 types on average, too, and that's also by the end of a 10+ hour game.  So the amount of memorization is pretty low, I think.  And the main thing is, when it comes time to attack something that isn't a fleet ship -- which is ever so much more common now -- you'll actually have a means to make decisions on that.  Guard posts, starships, golems, guardians, etc... none of those work properly with the strong/weak data, because it takes too many ships to take them down, and thus they wind up showing as strong against everything, which isn't that useful.  

Now we have a unified system that is pretty simple all around, especially against the big stuff.  The more I think about this, the less I think I'd even add strong/weak back as an option, because it would only be for fleet ships, it's a management hassle for me (I have to export that thing all the time, which takes forever), and it's subtly misleading all over the place.

THAT said, having a "likely counters" or something might be all right.  Okay, so I have a neutron hull.  What is good against neutron hulls?  Etc.

also:
melee ships don't seem to attack properly atm, and radar jammers dont seem to work

To my knowledge radar jammers should be fine, but if you have a save it would be appreciated.  We have another report about the melee stuff, I'll check that out.
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Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2010, 01:50:43 pm »
Bombers: The new Anti-Flagship.
Seriously?

I note very little gets bonuses to neutron hulls, at least none of the triangle, so that leaves virtually no units good vs starships. Except bombers, who eat flagships for pre-breakfast snack.

Note that all starships don't have the same hull type, same as all guard posts, etc, don't -- I felt like that was vastly too homogeneous before.  So some ship types are good against certain types of starships, and poor against others.  Specifically, bombers are good against flagships and light starships, apparently, but not against others.

I'm definitely open to balancing discussion on these, but they are not being treated as a universal group of "starships" any more.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2010, 01:55:25 pm »
ok, well i propose thus: Flagships became useless with so much getting such high bonuses vs heavy.

A small group of hybrids (9) killed them in literally moments.. mk1 hybrids. Previously, they at least had a chance to retreat..  

edit: also, i think theres something weird going on - neinzul commandos do ~80 damage to a hybrid forcefield, yet they do ~1600 damage to a regular forcefield of the same type (structural)

« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 01:58:40 pm by Lancefighter »
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Offline jordot42

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2010, 01:59:37 pm »
It took me all of 2 seconds to love the new "bonus against hull type system!" 

Could you alphabetize the attack multipliers though?  On some ships (frigates for example), the list is fine; but on others (bombers for example), you go from (h)eavy to (a)rtillery to (c)ommand to (u)ltra heave to (s)tructural.  Cross-referencing would be much quicker with an alphabetical list.

Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2010, 02:03:36 pm »
I'll definitely alphabetize these. 

As for the flagships, I'll give them a buff, you're right.  Lots of balance work needed, I'm sure -- can you post those in the bug tracker so that we can keep track of them?

Same for the hybrid force fields, they probably have the wrong hull type or something.  Thanks!
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2010, 02:12:15 pm »
kk they are up there.
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Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #37 on: October 15, 2010, 02:16:13 pm »
Thanks so much!
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #38 on: October 15, 2010, 02:21:27 pm »
When I implemented ship-based forcefields (for the Riots initially) I intended that ships have significantly different bonuses against them; but mostly just scaled down bonuses and penalties on all sides; so it would be much easier for fighters to eventually wear them down but not as easy for bombers to do so.  Fighters would still be inferior to Bombers for the task, but the difference would not be as great.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2010, 02:22:23 pm »
Something new: AI hybrids still can become builder classes...
I assume they will eventually actually build something with that defense module of theirs?

keith - ill check bomber/fighter bonuses vs them in a moment

fighter: 90 damage.
Bomber: 31000 damage.


regular ff:
fighter: 1800
bomber: 36000
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 02:24:19 pm by Lancefighter »
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #40 on: October 15, 2010, 02:23:18 pm »
And for those asking for lots of ships to have personal forcefields, I sympathize, but we can't have it be very common or the performance gets nasty.  Even if we make them "only protects the parent ship, cannot protect other ships" it's a significant chunk of extra processing since it basically requires either having a module or dying when the "shields" go down.
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Offline Arcain_One

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #41 on: October 15, 2010, 02:36:56 pm »
And for those asking for lots of ships to have personal forcefields, I sympathize, but we can't have it be very common or the performance gets nasty.  Even if we make them "only protects the parent ship, cannot protect other ships" it's a significant chunk of extra processing since it basically requires either having a module or dying when the "shields" go down.

Maybe some day. I see it like the hull type system: months ago it just wasn't the right answer to anything and it would be too complicated, maybe as the game evolves (and maybe computer technology as well) the call for shields will return.

For now, I would like to see how the current game works out.
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Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #42 on: October 15, 2010, 02:37:49 pm »
And for those asking for lots of ships to have personal forcefields, I sympathize, but we can't have it be very common or the performance gets nasty.  Even if we make them "only protects the parent ship, cannot protect other ships" it's a significant chunk of extra processing since it basically requires either having a module or dying when the "shields" go down.

Maybe some day. I see it like the hull type system: months ago it just wasn't the right answer to anything and it would be too complicated, maybe as the game evolves (and maybe computer technology as well) the call for shields will return.

For now, I would like to see how the current game works out.

That's a really good way to look at it, actually. :)
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #43 on: October 15, 2010, 02:40:48 pm »
* Starships all now have 10x more health.

<3
Thus fixes most all fragile support starships as well.

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Offline x4000

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #44 on: October 15, 2010, 02:41:58 pm »
Hopefully so.  If starships aren't feeling awesome enough, then they may need even more of a buff in various ways, but this is a start. :)
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