Author Topic: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!  (Read 10662 times)

Offline x4000

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AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« on: October 15, 2010, 02:49:02 am »
Original: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2010/10/ai-war-beta-3713-balance-destroyer.html

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Okay, maybe the nickname for this release doesn't sound like a good thing, but it so totally is. Like "The Sledge Hammer" before it, this release absolutely rips apart some old parts of the game, and it builds something much better in its place.  This is the last such rip-things-apart release we're going to have before 4.0 hits: it's all rebuilding, fine-tuning, and adding on new stuff from here on out (guardians are coming, I promise!).

The thing that's been ripped apart this time, though, is the combat model. It's a lot of long-requested changes, actually, but we finally figured out a way to do them in a way that would keep the essence of the game while making us and players happy.


This new combat model in the game will possibly feel identical to the old one for novice players, but for advanced players is worlds different. Specifically:
  • The old notion of shields (not to be confused with force fields) has been removed.  Most novice players didn't even know they existed at all, but they had an immense effect on the game and the way that targeting worked.  Now targeting is: a) simpler; b) not range-dependent; c) not including a random miss-chance component.
  • However, there was a bit of interest in parts of the concept of shields.  We've now formalized that into a new Armor concept, which is way simpler than the old shields model, but provides some of the same benefits for ships like Heavy Bombers, etc.
  • The game used to have a massive number (over 2,200, actually) of ship-against-ship-type internal bonuses.  You know: rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock.  And about 40 other elements, literally.  There had been great forums debates about this back in 2009, and possibly even stretching into early 2010, but... well, the short answer is that the time wasn't right and there wasn't a cogent model that met all my criteria.  But now there is!  So these are gone.
  • In place of the old ship-vs-ship-type internal bonuses, there is now a set of the following hull types: Scout, Light, Medium, Heavy, Artillery, Neutron, Swarmer, Ulra-Light, Close-Combat, Command-Grade, Refractive, Composite, Turret, Ultra-Heavy, Structural, or Polycrystal.  All ships belong to one of these hull types, and combat ships have some bonuses against approximately 0-5 of these hull types.
  • Going along with these changes, the old Strong/Weak Vs display has been removed from the game, for a variety of reasons.  In their place is a new Attack Multipliers display, which shows the bonuses against other hull types.  This is more brief, more effective, and again something a number of players had asked for.
Want more details on all those changes, and the reasoning behind many of them, etc?  See the lengthy release notes, linked above, for all that sort of thing.

But wait!  There is, in fact, quite a bit more to this release.  Aside from a number of eagerly-awaited bugfixes (missing image fixes to the OSX version and the 3.711 windows installer, Zenith Traders that will actually trade with you again, etc), there are a number of other changes.  The main ones:
  • Performance.  We figured out some new ways to squeak yet more performance out of the working set of the RAM.  Moving from .NET to Mono was more of a leap than we'd expected, because their garbage collectors are so different, but we're using the Unity profiler and other methods to get this optimized.  It's about as optimized now as it probably will be for 4.0 launch, and it's looking mighty good, even moreso than in 3.712.
  • Balance changes: Some of them are related to the whole combat-model-reinvention stuff that was already mentioned, obviously, but others are fundamental changes to how some ships work, or how mechanics such as "AOE damage immunity" function.  In particular, all the cluster bonus/penalty stuff (which wasn't really that fun) has been removed in favor of other mechanics.
  • Neinzul Younglings: These have seen a big revamp.  We're definitely soliciting feedback from playtesting with them at this time, too.
  • Previously, we sometimes called Mark V ships as "Core" or as "Mark V."  That's been made more consistent, as "Mark V."  As have the related ship names ("Core Predator" is now "Raptor Mark V," for instance).  See the release notes for more details on this, and what is indicated by the few ships that do still have "Core" in their name (mostly the Core Guard Posts).
  • The first OSX fixes: I mentioned that the missing images are now in place, but there was also a bug in the last version that was causing the OSX graphics to be slightly-to-very fuzzy.  Fixed!
  • And with this version, we can also confirm that the updater is definitely working on OSX just as well as on Windows.  In fact, aside from a handful of OSX-specific issues in our bug tracker, the experience seems pretty identical between the platforms, which is the goal.  We just didn't expect to get there that fast (knock on wood).
This is a standard update that you can download through the in-game updater itself, if you already have 3.701 or later. When you launch the game, you'll see the notice of the update having been found if you're connected to the Internet at the time.  If you don't have 3.701 or later, you can download the windows installer for 3.711, or the OSX installer for 3.712. Once you do an in-game update, they'll both be on the latest version, despite starting at slightly different versions.
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Offline Ozymandiaz

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2010, 04:10:41 am »
Hmm, this is indeed a big change.

Lots of testing to do i see, luckily its the weekend now ;)
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Offline Fiskbit

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2010, 04:47:34 am »
You get loud applause from me for the new combat system. Awesome. :)
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Offline Tusoalsob

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2010, 05:00:43 am »
Tanks for al the work and grats for the new Combat system :)

A mega cool update

Offline zebramatt

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2010, 05:46:09 am »
They said it could never happen!

Offline zebramatt

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2010, 08:18:53 am »
Quote
The Acid Sprayer no longer particularly targets Zenith stuff. Now it attacks "unusual hull compounds" in particular, which makes it a much more general-case useful ship, rather than just when opposing a lot of Zenith ships.

Quote
The Hull type is one of the following: Scout, Light, Medium, Heavy, Artillery, Neutron, Swarmer, Ulra-Light, Close-Combat, Command-Grade, Refractive, Composite, Turret, Ultra-Heavy, Structural, or Polycrystal.

I was just wondering which Hull types are considered unusual hull compounds; or does that refer to something else entirely?

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2010, 08:24:51 am »
I've taken my sweet time replying to this, mostly because I wanted to take time and let the initial feelings die down and have some brain-time with the changes. So far, I actually do like it a lot. It's gonna make it a lot easier doing surgical strikes or countering homogenous attacks, or defend against a particular ship type. It's also going to be semi-possible to commit this to memory, which is awesome.

Overall, this is shaping up to almost an entirely new game, but I find myself liking it. Initially I was a bit weary about the changes, but I think it's going to work out fine. All we need right now is to get the guardians in so all base functions are in place for real gameplay testing.

You're doing one hell of a job, guys! We appreciate it a lot!

I was just wondering which Hull types are considered unusual hull compounds; or does that refer to something else entirely?
And this as well. When the combat multipliers and strong/weak data being a lot more clear, I think this would need to be specified. Then again, as I understand it, this is just you mentioning things in the release notes, while the actual bonuses will be clear as day when in game and moused over an acid sprayer?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 08:26:43 am by Moonshine Fox »
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Offline superking

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2010, 08:27:17 am »
mind = blown

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2010, 08:49:50 am »
I have been rather noisily clamoring for the ship class system on IRC and threads. I am shocked to read it actually happened. I have some questions:

1) autobomb ship: you mentioned removing bonuses and penalties for the ship. I'm assuming you are leaving AOE in, but does this mean the AOE portion of the damage is flat rate against all classes? My line of thinking here is as it relates to some of the Children ships, and that would require some testing on my side.


2) can we get a spreadsheet or a list of bonuses? Also, can we get a multiplier/bonus damage example typed out? It would help with testing if I know what it is supposed to be. Specifically, the curiosity will be as it compares to the Children ships.



Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2010, 08:59:46 am »
I have been rather noisily clamoring for the ship class system on IRC and threads. I am shocked to read it actually happened.
Honestly we weren't even listening to debates on that topic any more (at least, I wasn't), but when Chris sat down to do the Shields to Armor conversion we got to talking about armor types, intuitiveness, etc... I about fell out of my chair when he decided to go with the hull-type thing :)
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2010, 09:10:16 am »
I've taken my sweet time replying to this, mostly because I wanted to take time and let the initial feelings die down and have some brain-time with the changes. So far, I actually do like it a lot. It's gonna make it a lot easier doing surgical strikes or countering homogenous attacks, or defend against a particular ship type. It's also going to be semi-possible to commit this to memory, which is awesome.

Overall, this is shaping up to almost an entirely new game, but I find myself liking it. Initially I was a bit weary about the changes, but I think it's going to work out fine. All we need right now is to get the guardians in so all base functions are in place for real gameplay testing.
Yea, I've been guessing that some players are watching all this (throughout the 3.700+ betas) thinking "you know, guys, I liked the game just fine before, is all this ripping-things-apart really necessary?"  And it's probably even emotionally draining for some of them.  This is one of the oddities of the whole beta thing: typically players think that getting access to and involvement in game-betas is an unqualifiedly-good thing.  And it is pretty sweet, particularly with a community like this.  But you get to see "how the hot dog is made" (metaphorically speaking, thankfully), and it's not always a 100% pleasant experience ;)

All that said, these changes are actually carefully considered before they're done, because generally they're based on months and months of having thought about stuff and how it would be really nice to do that thing better but we can't quite figure out something that would fully work... a-ha! Changed ;)

Quote
You're doing one hell of a job, guys! We appreciate it a lot!
And we really appreciate you saying so, a lot :)

I was just wondering which Hull types are considered unusual hull compounds; or does that refer to something else entirely?

For what it's worth, here's the bonuses in the unit definition:

Code: [Select]
                this.SetHullTypeAttackBonus( HullType.Composite, 200 );
                this.SetHullTypeAttackBonus( HullType.Neutron, 200 );
                this.SetHullTypeAttackBonus( HullType.Polycrystal, 150 );
                this.SetHullTypeAttackBonus( HullType.Refractive, 150 );

For reference, attack power of an Acid Sprayer I/II/III/IV/V is 10/20/30/40/60.
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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2010, 09:22:28 am »
Yeah, I was suprised at the amount of changes coming in the Unity beta. Anyone going from 3.120 to 4.0 is going have a heart-attack methinks xD There's a heck of a lot of changes, and I like all of em so far.

Thanks for the clarification on the Acid Sprayers. It was as I though that the bonuses would show up just fine in game. It would've been rather obscure and odd if it were just having a bonus against "unusual hull types" :P
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Offline Thumpy

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 09:24:18 am »
i think the new combat system is a simple, yet ingenious rethink. the old system wasn't bad, but this is better. well done! it came as quite a shock, though :P

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 09:38:02 am »
It came as quite a shock, though :P
You can say that again ;)
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Offline Arcain_One

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Re: AI War Beta 3.713, "The Balance Destroyer," Released!
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2010, 10:58:12 am »
With the scaling of ship caps I was wondering how the cluster bonus would be handled, I too think this is the way to go.

I was under the impression a few months ago that hull type was completely considered and discarded, so I didn't give my two cents about it. But now: I had the idea of having a hull type and a hull thickness, as far as I understand the update the armor seems to be the equivalent.

I have always envisioned shields as miniature personal forcefields (and I'm certain that I'm not alone in this), I do hope that they make a return.
It just makes more sense for polarizers to decimate shields than armor (at first glance anyways, I'm sure we will get over the semantics)

All in all it looks like a new game has been brought out, people that use 3.16 (such as myself) are going to be completely lost if they try to treat this as the same game. ;)
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