Author Topic: AI Teamate  (Read 4914 times)

Offline raptor331

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AI Teamate
« on: December 02, 2009, 09:07:11 pm »
     If you guys can make a killer enemy ai, why not find out what kind of co op ai could you guys come up with....(nudge nudge  ;))

Offline x4000

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2009, 11:23:28 pm »
That's definitely on the list, as a potential for a future expansion.  At the moment we're just too full up on the schedule, and it's something that's not of interest to enough of the playerbase.  But with the new neutral Zenith aliens in the expansion, sometimes you'll be able to team up with them to a degree... :)
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Offline HellishFiend

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 05:11:01 am »
I'm all for the idea of more ambient opportunities to cooperate with a computer-controlled entity that pre-exists on the map as opposed to a full blown computer teammate. I think the Zenith idea is terrific and it would be cool if eventually there were multiple types of pre-existing entities that forced you to make interesting decisions on how to approach the ultimate goal of eliminating the AI.

However, this is coming from someone who regularly plays with a friend as opposed to playing alone, so looking at the other side of the coin, I can see why a solo player might be heavily interested in playing a "co op" game without an actual second person.
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Offline Fiskbit

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2009, 06:11:27 am »
There've been several requests in IRC for AI teammates from players who typically play solo. It's probably worth keeping in mind as a possibility for the next expansion; I think a lot of people would really appreciate it. I suspect it'd get a lot of use, given that most players play solo.
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Offline raptor331

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2009, 07:46:10 am »
i was hoping it would be for the base game too.....

Offline Haagenti

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 08:11:57 am »
If you play only 1 (one) game with this feature enabled, you have 10 hours (or so) of fun. Surely that's worth $10 for an expansion?
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Offline NickAragua

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2009, 11:31:01 am »
Now, the real question is, why would I want an AI to drink tea with me?

FOCUS:

Not a big fan of the idea. AI team mates are horribly stupid in most games, and while the AI opponent here works very well, it's because it follows a different set of rules, and can afford to make silly decisions. If a teammate goes off and starts doing stupid things (for example, assaulting systems that you intend to leave alone, building command centers in systems where you were intending to build them), that can easily cost you the game. So, you'd have to be able to control the teammate pretty explicitly. And if you're doing that, you might as well just start with more planets instead and control them yourself.

Offline x4000

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2009, 11:38:48 am »
AI team mates are horribly stupid in most games, and while the AI opponent here works very well, it's because it follows a different set of rules, and can afford to make silly decisions. If a teammate goes off and starts doing stupid things (for example, assaulting systems that you intend to leave alone, building command centers in systems where you were intending to build them), that can easily cost you the game. So, you'd have to be able to control the teammate pretty explicitly. And if you're doing that, you might as well just start with more planets instead and control them yourself.

Yes, these are all the major concerns I have, as well.  I have never seen AI allies in another RTS game that I felt like were all that worthwhile, although they were better than nothing as far as diverting the attention of enemy AIs.  Compare this to allied AI in FPS games, which tends to be extraordinarily helpful these days, and can really simulate squad tactics with just a single human player.

If this feature is to be implemented, it's a nontrivial thing from an AI design, interface/interaction design, and actual technical implementation standpoint.  I could see this as being interesting territory to explore in a future expansion for the simple fact that most other implementations in the RTS genre are so poor (compared to other genres, and to what players want in an ideal world).  Will I be able to make an "ideal" allied AI?  Probably not.  But I think I can come up with something that is much better than anything else out there at the moment, if I spend a good month or more on it.

Given the scope and complexity and time cost (which, for Arcen, also equates to actual money cost, too, recall) of this feature, there's no question that it's not a free DLC addition.  The original conception for this one, when it was originally being discussed as possibly free DLC (there is a topic off in the Development Discussion thread somewhere, which this should probably be merged with), was much to simple to really be all that useful.  To really do this right, rather than as a bullet-on-a-box as in many other games, is going to take a lot more effort.  Giant new features that are too large for free DLC are kind of the name of the game with the expansions, so it's a good fit there.
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Offline Lancefighter

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2009, 03:20:20 pm »
as per AI assaulting words you have no care in taking, perhaps it would be an idea to base AI aggression on the value of the planet? An algorithm that is based off mineral value (would this really even matter for an AI teammate?), adv stuff there, and finally (with a rather large weight on this), the player's value of the planet (represented by the already present 0-9 tags)
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Offline Spikey00

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2009, 05:23:25 pm »
Quote
That's definitely on the list

I love you.

There've been several requests in IRC for AI teammates from players who typically play solo. It's probably worth keeping in mind as a possibility for the next expansion; I think a lot of people would really appreciate it. I suspect it'd get a lot of use, given that most players play solo.

Especially me, right!?  Haha.

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Offline x4000

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2009, 05:27:06 pm »
There's actually already a topic somewhere on that subject, but feel free to resurrect it.  At the moment I'm not going to participate too heavily in design discussion for a feature that is 10-12 months out from implementation, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who might like to contribute ideas for when I am circling back around to that -- plenty fine with me, and feedback and ideas in advance are always welcome!
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Offline raptor331

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2009, 10:02:50 pm »
I have an idea, if you guys ever played galactic battle grounds, you can give commands to allied ai this would be a good idea for the game

Offline x4000

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2009, 10:11:04 pm »
Yep, that's the general idea is that you'd need to be able to give them orders of some vague nature ("drawing battle plans" to some extent) to have them then coordinate.
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Offline eRe4s3r

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2009, 07:48:12 am »
Mhh, I think you all are overthinking this way too much - AI Team-Mates do not have to be the same kind of "element" as you or the enemy or the Zenith AI thing. - But having said that, now i am going to over think it WAY beyond what this suggestion (AI Mate) covered.

Just from the top of my hat, heres a ways it would work (And add a lot to the gameplay too, and finally give a reason for the (atm pointless) missions tab)

1) Random spawning AI (as in, human ;p) enclaves (buildings) very very rare, rarer than golems which are neutral to you after freed them, and they can NOT be destroyed (only damaged like golems, costing progression to repair them.)
2) After freeing them, a random "Character" is assigned to them (From a set of 12 or so) each with unique personality and unique goals.

3) To ally with them (to gain their abilities/ships) you have to accomplish dynamically generated missions alá
- Kill 50 guard posts
- Kill all planets around the enclave
- Kill X amount of Y Ship
- Get a Golem etc.

But instead of generic missions like that these missions are real missions - with rewards - For example after capturing you could get the mission to destroy a neighboring IV planet and as reward you get XXX Amount of super fancy unique! (not in abilities, just unique!) MK5 ships

4) After alliance these outposts spawn ships randomly which can be bought with a newly added resource, XP (gained from destroying stuff of the AI enemy)

This XP is a resource that
- Decays over time (the longer you don't use it, the less you have)
- If you destroy 500 Infiltrators, every destroyed infiltrator earns you 0.5% less XP (per ship destroyed of the same type)
- Destroying planets gives you massive XP

Ok, actually this idea gets even better - this resource would be the counter-balance to progression and allow for a different way to play the game.

With this XP you get from accomplishing missions you can now buy special abilities from your newly gained allies. Like "Wormhole cleaner" / "AI Reinforcement jammers" / "Golem Repair for free (no progression costs) etc.

In exchange, destroying planets should have more progression penalty.

You see 1 gameplay element can lead to an entirely new subclass of gameplay - Deciding how to solve a problem based on how OTHER games solved is never a good idea.

My idea
My 2cts ,)

Needless to say, such a massive addition would need a 2nd expansion though it wouldn't carry a 2nd expansion alone.... Also how/if a 3rd resource is something x4000 considers at all is also interesting to hear. Because i think the game is selling itself short with just 2 resources. The Unique stuff (Esp mercenaries) should be paid with different resource than the things you build yourself.

Also - Mercenaries could become dependent on time-decaying "XP" (i am just calling it that, for lack of a good name) and when it reaches 0 (ie if you are not destroying anything for a while) the mercenaries start loosing power and hp (up to 50% less of all stats all around)

And mercenaries should spawn instantly then ^^

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Also, when i say XP i am actually thinking of something like a .. mhh, destructometer (the more stuff you destroy, the higher it gets, but when it you don't fight for a while it decays down to 0 again, slowly but steadily)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 07:55:28 am by eRe4s3r »
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Offline raptor331

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Re: AI Teamate
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2009, 04:21:43 pm »
How about you just make an ai that has the same starting resources as the player does, Without orders, it builds up its defence and builds ships to add to the number of attacking ships, but will always keep some at home to protect, you can give it orders like:

CAPTURE PLANET
This orders the ai to capture a planet, using the added resources, this will speed up the rate at witch it builds ships and structures due to increased Resource income

NEUTRALIZE PLANET
This orders the ai to destroy all enemy ships but does not build a command station.

REINFORCE PLANET
This tells the ai to help defend one of your planets, like build turrents around wormholes or send some of it's attack ships over.

GIVE SHIPS
This order tells the ai to give you a certian amount of ships(depending on how many they have in there attack fleet) But the ai chooses what it gives you(this helps keep the player from using the ai as a cheap ship maker)

CONVOY
This can be used to order the ai to have its attack fleet form a convoy for a selected ship ex:science lab or transport.