AI retaking planets

[SmileyFace]

I was reading other threads today and saw this post: http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,897.msg29181.html#msg29181. It really got me thinking. I mean the second part, not the first

I imagine the idea of the AI retaking planets has been discussed a lot in the past and I was curious if the idea has been put in the "too hard" or "won't do" baskets. If not, then...

Personally I'd love to see the AI attempt to retake a border planet now and then. Say, every 4 to 6 hours. i.e. Give the player a 15 or 20 minute warning, then send a massive wave of tougher-than-normal ships into the system. If the AI destroys all player structures, it recolonises the system immediately and lowers AIP by the same amount as whatever it builds i.e. -10 for a warp gate (AI: See, the humans aren't such a threat after all!). Maybe even create a captive human colony (no AIP change) to permanently mix up the planet's value.

[x4000]

Well, it could happen, but honestly I think it's fraught with potential design problems, so it's not a place I've wanted to go.  I imagine we will at some point, but it's a rather huge thing.  To give an example of three issues:

1. If the AIP is not given back to players, then this creates a huge problem where the AIP can essentially be increased by the AI if the players must retake that planet because they need it.

2. If the AIP is given back, then it provides an easy way for players to trick the AI into giving them an "undo."

3. This messes with the tempo a lot, making players redo a lot more than when they just lose a planet.

And so on.  It might be feasible at some point, but it's a major design shift and not something to be done lightly.  It would need a long community testing cycle, might need to be an AI Modifier at least at first, and so on...

[Mánagarmr]

No need to give an extra AIP increase. The AI could simply repopulate the system with a non-AIP increasing station/Warp gate. That way you, as a player, don't get any good out of the AI repopulating the system, and neither do you lose anything from quelling that system again.


EDIT: That of course implies that you do not receive any reduction either on re-population.

[x4000]

That is an excellent point, actually.

[ShadowOTE]

Another related mechanic: the ability to rebuild destroyed guard posts. Lets say each system has a max number of guard posts, and a current number of guard posts. If the current limit is reached, then the AI can trade in a few hundred ships for a new guard post. Thoughts?

[orzelek]

Another related mechanic: the ability to rebuild destroyed guard posts. Lets say each system has a max number of guard posts, and a current number of guard posts. If the current limit is reached, then the AI can trade in a few hundred ships for a new guard post. Thoughts?

This would actually counteract neutering and recently added border guards system. With the possibility that reinforcements can attack your planets we need to have ability to neuter plantes I think and rebuilding of guard posts by AI would add ton of micro to check neutered planets etc

[lanstro]

I don't think it's necessarily an issue if the rebuilt AI base costs 20 aip again to kill - if you lose a planet and lose it for long enough for the AI to rebuild there, there should be some penalties.

[RogueThunder]

With an exclusion to the Dyson Sphere system, I would hope.

[WinterBorn]

There has been discussion of the AI recapturing planets for over a year. The 1st post I saw was from the Admiral with the idea of having recapped systems get a data center to offset the AI increase of redestroying the com stat and warp gate.
Others have suggested A non AI increasing replacement set of structures.

For the actual recapture mechanic - most sugestions revolve around some kind of AI recolonization fleet and a Colonizer ship.

Perhaps as an alternative -- a new minor faction with its "Recolonizer Golem" -- this faction would attempt to capture a human system for themselves and would be hostile to Human and AI (or maybe just humans). the spawn rate of these recolonizer golems could be similar to Human rebel colonies and there could be a tech or resource goodie for taking the planet back or killing the Recolonizer Golem before it finishes taking over a human planet.

On the next DLC poll I am nominating AI recolonizing planets - a group of threads that has been around about a year now.

http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,459.0.html
http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,2609.0.html

New thread
http://arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,897.msg29181.html#msg29181

I think this could be an very good new agressive behavior for the AI. As it is now if I lose a planet to the AI it does nothing with it. Recolonizing AI's would mean that I could lose a planet and the AI would rebuild turrets, minefields, etc. Forward staging bases could get wiped out and become very hard to retake. I would also expect the AI to rebuild stronger since it had to fight to retake the system.

{SNIP}

Well, it could happen, but honestly I think it's fraught with potential design problems, so it's not a place I've wanted to go.  I imagine we will at some point, but it's a rather huge thing.  To give an example of three issues:

1. If the AIP is not given back to players, then this creates a huge problem where the AIP can essentially be increased by the AI if the players must retake that planet because they need it.

2. If the AIP is given back, then it provides an easy way for players to trick the AI into giving them an "undo."

3. This messes with the tempo a lot, making players redo a lot more than when they just lose a planet.

And so on.  It might be feasible at some point, but it's a major design shift and not something to be done lightly.  It would need a long community testing cycle, might need to be an AI Modifier at least at first, and so on...

I like this idea. As much as I hate to say it, I like the idea of having more and varied offensive capabilities for the AI, up to and including his re-taking planets and re-populating them with command centers, wormhole generators, and (probably a good idea) a data center on any re-populated system (so as to allow it to be re-de-populated without AI progress modification - OR in the alternative, having reduced- or no-AI progress versions of command centers and wormhole generators when being re-populated).

You could, of course, tune the size of the defending force to the AI's knowledge of the mobile forces in adjacent planets. So, the first time he hits 3k and sends a 1k expeditionary attack, and runs into a mobile force of 1k and gets wiped out, he will wait until 4k before trying again so that way he still has a solid defense...

I like the idea of repopulation of planets when that is paired with a data center.  Why didn't I think of that!?  My objection to the repopulation of planets was that it would cause problems with the AI Progress, but now that's no longer an issue, so that's cool.

{SNIP}

[Mánagarmr]

I only see a slight problem with the Data Center solution and that is that while your total AIP doesn't change, your floor will go up. Otherwise it's a nice design.

[WinterBorn]

I only see a slight problem with the Data Center solution and that is that while your total AIP doesn't change, your floor will go up. Otherwise it's a nice design.

A rising floor would be a penalty for losing the system if it is an AI that recaps the planet.

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I am starting to lean in the direction of a new "Minor Faction"

If the "recap" idea is incorporated as a Minor Faction -- Recap Golem with suporting fleet -- that could be effective as a substitue for "a more aggressive AI" with out changing the basic AI coding or incuring an increase in the AI progress/floor.

Recap Golems could show up every few hours of game time, or with some other game trigger. The Recap Golem should be resonably hard to kill (similar to a SuperFort with a strong anti FF buff) have a supporting fleet and take maybe 10 minutes to begin building additional defenses after killing the human Com center.
It may have a special unit or tactic that makes it hard to bypass with transports.
It should be able to convert any left over in-system AI structures (mines, turrets, etc) for its own use. This could apply to human owned structures and capturables (core factories etc.) as well.
It may reward the player that defeats it with a ship unlock similar to the saved rebel human colonies tech.

[triggerman602]

i think rewarding the player with anything would be unnecessary.

also the rate that these recap fleets would appear should be inversely proportional to the number of planets the AI owns.

just my 2 cents. hope something like this gets implemented.

[drum]

should be inversely proportional to the number of planets the AI owns.

yep, that sort of mechanic could make it so that recapture is unlikely or avoidable if careful in a 'normal' game, tie it in with AIP too.

could make super high AIP & capture the entire galaxy games really intense towards the end, when the AI is giving you everything its got just to survive

also, i like the third faction idea, a rogue AI trying to establish itself in the galaxy.

[Kjara]

The data center mechanic would be rather exploitable(take the planet, capture whatever you want on that planet, say an ARS, let the computer retake it and kill the data center to get the aip back).  I'd much rather see the replacement warp gate/command center's not give aip.

[WinterBorn]

The data center mechanic would be rather exploitable(take the planet, capture whatever you want on that planet, say an ARS, let the computer retake it and kill the data center to get the aip back).  I'd much rather see the replacement warp gate/command center's not give aip.

Also the "replacement" com center could be more like a "Super fort" since the AI had to recapture the system, and/or the recapped system could always get core level replacements since the AI has taken an interest in that particular system.