Author Topic: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds  (Read 4355 times)

Offline Catma

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AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« on: February 02, 2012, 08:21:28 pm »
In my latest game I cordoned off the AI into a few patches of space, managing buildup of reinforcements by taking out strong planets and leaving weak ones in their own little corrals. In preparation for a 3000 unit CPA (This seems unaccountably high, considering the formula... but then, theres that "AI Floor" term that I can't find defined anywhere), I scouted to see where the units could be coming from, and built my defenses/positioned my fleet accordingly.

The CPA comes and what does the AI do? Blows up its own ships so they can reappear on the other side of the galaxy. What is the point of even scouting if it can do this? Positioning has no meaning if the AI can "redeploy" thousands of units to any planet in its control, even ones that should be inaccessible. Ships are supposed to be "freed" during a CPA, not created at a location the AI desires.

Offline BobTheJanitor

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2012, 09:07:50 pm »
AI Ships come in through warp gates from their endless discount shipyard located just 2 miles beyond the edge of the universe. (Just past the old tire shop. If you hit the red shift you've gone too far, turn around) So unfortunately, yes, they can deploy new ships anywhere they like. Once they're here, they're stuck and reliant on travel through the wormhole network just like you. But CPAs and wave attacks can come from anywhere there's a warp gate. The AI is a jerk!

And there are still plenty of points to scouting, but there's often much more of a point to leave scouts behind to watch things for you. Even on worlds that you plan to never do anything with again, it's best to have scouts at least one jump out and preferably two jumps if you can swing it. Then you can watch where AI ships are building up due to border aggression and get some pre-warning on CPAs in situations just like this.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 04:33:42 am »
No, actually, Catma has a point. Right here:

Ships are supposed to be "freed" during a CPA, not created at a location the AI desires.
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Offline Belga

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2012, 05:20:18 am »
It might have been a usual reinforcement though. The AI can choose the location of those freely, right? Then it's "just" odd timing that both reinforcement and CPA happened at exactly the same time.

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Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2012, 06:45:56 am »
Btw: Hi, I'm new. :-)
Ohai! You B most velkam! (no joke. You really are welcome :D)
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Offline PokerChen

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2012, 07:33:41 am »
In my latest game I cordoned off the AI into a few patches of space, managing buildup of reinforcements by taking out strong planets and leaving weak ones in their own little corrals. (etc...)
Given the limited information you posted, three possibilities:
(1) Did you know where the AI home commands were? Whenever there isn't enough ships to free, the AI summons the rest from their exo-galactic home, which should filter down through the worm holes.

(2)  An unknown aggravated location. Your AIP seems to be quite high, looking at that figure... what was it and how many homeworlds did you own? How much did you scout? What options did you have on? A Dyson that sat there undetected for hours?

(3) Hitherto unknown bug. Do you have a screenshot or a save?

Do realise that "cordoning" is impossible when every AI command station is technically linked to another galaxy... they don't build ships in your galaxy anymore (in 99% of the cases).

Quote
"AI Floor" term that I can't find defined anywhere
In the recent versions, it's meant to be 20% of the total AIP increases you've gained so far. Mouse-over the AIP to find out what it is currently. The wiki is heavily outdated (so are some tips of the day due to the recent patches), and the closest thing you'll find is here. :P http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_AI_Progress [/quote]

« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 07:36:01 am by zharmad »

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2012, 09:57:17 am »
The CPA comes and what does the AI do? Blows up its own ships so they can reappear on the other side of the galaxy. What is the point of even scouting if it can do this? Positioning has no meaning if the AI can "redeploy" thousands of units to any planet in its control, even ones that should be inaccessible. Ships are supposed to be "freed" during a CPA, not created at a location the AI desires.

I've noticed this too. It seems like the AI is sometimes allowed to "fast travel" its ships along planets it (or its AI ally) owns, instead of always having slowly move their ships across the galaxy. Moderately long time players may remember when the AI's ether jets would sometimes jump across the galaxy in a single wormhole jump when it was tractoring one of your ships, taking your ship across the galaxy too. That is what confirmed the behavior for me, I had only suspected it before them. The AI is generally good about not cheating like this when you are looking. (And yes, this is true cheating, as the AI is violating mechanics of how ships interact with wormholes)
It seems really dumb, and is a mechanic I would love to see gone.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 09:59:55 am by techsy730 »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2012, 11:04:41 am »
I don't think the blowing up of the ships is part of the cpa logic; that may be because it didn't have enough of the desired mark level ships and spawned them on the AI homeworlds to fill out the cpa, but that put some total over the scrap-wave threshold and it scrapped the other ones you were looking at.  But that seems unlikely, the scrap-wave threshold is mighty high.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2012, 11:05:53 am »
Anyway, if you have a save before the "explosive redeployment"* , I can take a look.  Good possibility it's a bug.


* (sounds like a fiber problem)
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Offline Catma

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2012, 09:43:05 pm »
Quote
(1) Did you know where the AI home commands were? Whenever there isn't enough ships to free, the AI summons the rest from their exo-galactic home, which should filter down through the worm holes.

(2)  An unknown aggravated location. Your AIP seems to be quite high, looking at that figure... what was it and how many homeworlds did you own? How much did you scout? What options did you have on? A Dyson that sat there undetected for hours?

(3) Hitherto unknown bug. Do you have a screenshot or a save?

Do realise that "cordoning" is impossible when every AI command station is technically linked to another galaxy... they don't build ships in your galaxy anymore (in 99% of the cases).

(1) Both home worlds are currently scouted. No additional ships are created at the home worlds.

(2) There are only 5 worlds left in the cordoned area where the ships are being redeployed to - I could feasibly scout them all by going back to an earlier save, but I don't think I've ever alerted those worlds that I haven't scouted recently. Possibly one of them, for a short period in the very recent past. AIP is 715, below the MK III threshold. I have 37 worlds and 1 homeworld (I recently took long chains of planets in my push for the AI homeworlds, stopping short of the MK III threshold.) Very few options, as this is only my third game, and this is Vanilla AI War (I wanted to play at least a few games before adding the expansions, to see how the feel changed.) No Dyson, no plots.

I am aware that I can't cordon off reinforcements from the exo-galactic location. I am not worried about new ships coming in which is perfectly fine, but existing ships should not be able to pass between the sections I've made.

I don't think the blowing up of the ships is part of the cpa logic; that may be because it didn't have enough of the desired mark level ships and spawned them on the AI homeworlds to fill out the cpa, but that put some total over the scrap-wave threshold and it scrapped the other ones you were looking at.  But that seems unlikely, the scrap-wave threshold is mighty high.

Interesting. The game is at the 16 hour mark. Although, I have both AI homeworlds scouted, and no new units appear.

Anyway, if you have a save before the "explosive redeployment"* , I can take a look.  Good possibility it's a bug.

Yeah, here it is, about 4 seconds before the CPA and subsequent redeployment. Check out Braxis and Amnell in the upper right. These worlds also have two barracks each on them.... Also, if you pause shortly after the CPA, the redeployment and destruction will occur DURING the pause.

Quote
I've noticed this too. It seems like the AI is sometimes allowed to "fast travel" its ships along planets it (or its AI ally) owns, instead of always having slowly move their ships across the galaxy. Moderately long time players may remember when the AI's ether jets would sometimes jump across the galaxy in a single wormhole jump when it was tractoring one of your ships, taking your ship across the galaxy too. That is what confirmed the behavior for me, I had only suspected it before them. The AI is generally good about not cheating like this when you are looking. (And yes, this is true cheating, as the AI is violating mechanics of how ships interact with wormholes)
It seems really dumb, and is a mechanic I would love to see gone.

That's pretty bad. It still does this? It would have to keep positional data for tens of thousands of ships though, otherwise. Or just slow down the fast-travel based on the wormhole distance and ship speed at each individual planet.... still sounds like it takes a lot of resources. But I'm not a programmer so I dunno what's possible.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 09:56:36 pm by Catma »

Offline Minotaar

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2012, 03:09:46 am »
Whoa. Ships instantly coming across the whole galaxy to fill carriers spawned on a homeworld.. o_O With helpful messages, too.
My current strategy of leaving CPA-mark planets to stack ships to control the direction of the attack might be completely thwarted by this evil trick.
What have you to say in your defense, Keith?  :D

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2012, 09:42:09 am »
I've noticed this too. It seems like the AI is sometimes allowed to "fast travel" its ships along planets it (or its AI ally) owns, instead of always having slowly move their ships across the galaxy. Moderately long time players may remember when the AI's ether jets would sometimes jump across the galaxy in a single wormhole jump when it was tractoring one of your ships, taking your ship across the galaxy too. That is what confirmed the behavior for me, I had only suspected it before them. The AI is generally good about not cheating like this when you are looking. (And yes, this is true cheating, as the AI is violating mechanics of how ships interact with wormholes)
It seems really dumb, and is a mechanic I would love to see gone.
Wait, what?

I'm not aware of any mechanic that actually transfers a ship in that way.  There's scrap-waves that can destroy a ship and recombine it into an attack wave, and there's another mechanic where guarding AI ships can be "traded up" into higher marks if there's too many, but nothing like what you described.  If you can reproduce the etherjet tractoring you through a wormhole to a distant planet, please mantis it :)  There was a bug at some point where the tractored ship would show up on the destination (adjacent, legitimately-traveled-to) planet at the same point they were on the other planet, but we fixed that a while ago and it wasn't what you're describing there.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2012, 09:44:25 am »
Whoa. Ships instantly coming across the whole galaxy to fill carriers spawned on a homeworld.. o_O With helpful messages, too.
My current strategy of leaving CPA-mark planets to stack ships to control the direction of the attack might be completely thwarted by this evil trick.
What have you to say in your defense, Keith?  :D
I plead ignorance :)

@Catma: thanks for the save, will take a look.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2012, 03:30:54 pm »
Ok, it is the carrier thing.  It doesn't have anything directly to do with it being a CPA, the AI just redeploys ships to carriers whenever the number of freed ships on a particular planet exceeds a certain level.  Doing some further investigation to see if there's a less jarring way of handling cases like this, but as long as the AI has an active warp gate on a planet I don't really see a lore reason why they can't have simply warped all of them back home to load up.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI "Redeploying" ships to inaccessible worlds
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2012, 03:53:55 pm »
Ok, more exactly:

When there's more than 4000 threat, and more than 2000 threat eligible for carrier-ing, it carriers all but 1000 to 2400 (randomly picked) of the ships.

There's one very important rule in the "is this eligible to be put in a carrier" logic that you can use to your advantage if you really want to keep those forces "pinned": they cannot be carrier'd if there are any enemies on the planet. (edit: scouts don't count; this means things with an attack power; some cloaked eyebots in a corner will do in a pinch)

Also, if you can keep threat from exceeding 4000 you'll be ok.  In your case you're getting a fairly large cpa (an AIP of 715 will do that) and even it is only just barely tipping you over the 4000 mark.

In your save there's not a lot of time before the cpa but I was still able to prevent the carrier spawns by rushing all the mobile ships from Kardel to Almasy, which killed enough enemies that it brought it below the 4000 mark before the AI thread got back around for checking for carrier spawns.  Even if I hadn't killed enough by that point (or the cpa had been like 5000 or 6000) the ships on the planets I rushed would not have been able to join the carrier force.

FYI, the reason it still happens during pause is that pause has no impact on the AI thread: it keeps checking and issuing commands.  "Scrap" happens to be a command that can be executed during pause; human players can do that too.  What human players don't have is the two-way-warp-grid tomfoolery, but welcome to a nasty galaxy :)

Anyway, I'm not seeing anything that really needs to be done in this case: it's not ideal but if AIP gets that high the AI's going to be doing some things you don't like.  There are still some ways to counter.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2012, 04:06:51 pm by keith.lamothe »
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