AI Progress Level... BOGGLE!

[maritime]

Hey guys, great game here. I played a game on AI difficulty 4 and steamrolled the 2 easy AIs... I basically took every system, killed every enemy / warp gate in sight. No problemo. I made it roughly 2/3 of the way through the galaxy (it was small, 60 planets) and then decided for something harder.... Trying 2 lvl 7 ais.

Now, a question. People say you should not to kill the warp gate / command post of systems that are not of importance. Well what is importance? If there is a planet with say 1 metal and 0 crystal adjacent to my homeworld should I kill the warp gate / command post? For example, if there are 5 systems all strung end to end do I need to only capture the warp gate on the final system?

diagram:

my base - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 -5

if I blow through all 5 systems and only kill the warp gate / command post on the 5th planet wouldnt the other 4 make ships to attack my home world from their command posts? should I capture them all?

In my last game I tried leaving a few of them alive but if they are on your way to something else they keep re-spawning ships (annoying) and essentially make you have to defend much more than the frontier.

I guess my question is, how many systems are too many to kill? If there is some worthless string of planets going off to nowhere I wont go after it, but if it is moderately profitable (say 2 metal 2 crystal) and will help me expand my system why not take it?

When should I be worried about the AI progress level? 200? 400? It is a very abstract concept to me right now. 

[x4000]

Welcome to the forums, and thanks for your support of the game!

Well, opinions on this actually vary a bit between the hardcore players here.  I'm the developer of the game, but some other players have figured out some very effective tactics that are a bit different from how I personally play it.  I'll let them tell you about those when they stop by next, but I guess which way you go depends on your personal preferences and playstyle.

My feelings:
-----------

I tend not to be too worried about the AI Progress reaching around 400-600 by the end of an 80 planet map.  You can even go higher, but it will get harder. Killing the first of the two AIs will bump it up by around 100, so you might want to position yourself where you can kill both in quick succession if you can.  But that's not nearly always possible.

As far as whether you should kill the warp gate on a planet, I would suggest that if the planet is adjacent to your home planet, then the answer is yes 100% of the time.  If you can create a layer of buffer around your home planet, that is always worthwhile.

Beyond that, it's just a matter of either 1) capturing some sort of goal; or 2) reducing the number of ingress points through which the AI can to send waves at you.

Goals worthy of taking a planet:
- Advanced Research Stations (100% of the time)
- Advanced Factories (100% of the time unless you already have one)
- Large amounts of metal/crystal (if the planet is defensible, and you need whichever resource)
- Other special capturable structures that you might encounter and desire.

Goals that you should just raid for unless there is some other reason you want the planet:
- Destroying a data center
- Destroying Astro Train stations
- Destroying Special Forces Command Posts

If a planet is just in your way, or threatening you through adjacency, you can always decide to go in and kill all of the command posts but leave the command station and/or warp gate.  If there is a long string of planets in your way, you can use transports to ferry your guys across all of them, but you might be setting yourself up for being too weak later on.  It's hard to say.

In general, when I play an 80 planet map, I tend to capture a planet around every 45 minutes, give or take.  I tend to thus take around 20-30 planets total out of the 80 planets on the map.  That is 400-600 AI Progress right there, not counting special forces command posts or astro train station additions (or additions from other sources), and also not counting data center reductions in AI Progress. 

I tend to be pretty lax on destroying all the data centers, too, unlike some others here.  That would be problematic when playing on the really high difficulties, which I occasionally do, but I tend to prefer a more relaxed game and so tend to play in the difficulty 7 range (it's only "relaxed" if you really know what you are doing, don't worry, and even then it still provides enough challenge that sometimes my own AI surprises me and kills me).

Anyway, so you should be okay at the start, it's not until the cumulative effect of the AI Progress starts taking hold that -- on difficulty 7 and similar -- things start to get dicey.  But YMMV, depending on your skill and comfort level at the moment, and also the specific map and AI types you have in this game.  Some maps are harder than others, and require a more conservative or aggressive strategy. 

Having a string of 5 planets all in a row sounds like the sort of thing that I, personally, would probably take just to have an open supply line.  But it depends on the rest of the map and how open it is.  If you're going to be going through narrow corridors like that the whole time, then that might be trouble and something you should instead hop over.  On the plus side, if those are all that border your home, and you take them all, you've got a helluva lot of buffer between the AI and your home.  On the minus side, the attacks will be that much stronger against your front door...

Hope that helps! I'm sure others will weigh in with their opinions, also.

[Admiral]

This really belongs on the Wiki (official or otherwise)!

[maritime]

Ok game update.

On lvl 7 difficulty (both enemies)

Around 8 hours in, I own ~11 systems and have a pretty solid strategic position... I am just about maxed out on ships, have lvl 4 ships for everything but fighter (started with bulletproof). I decide to go on a research mission as i have neglected most of the tech tree besides ships... and I am running out of turrets / tractor beams to cover all the open wormholes so I dont want to expand too much more right now. I get about 700 ships, 2 advanced research stations, and 2 regular sci labs and go around.

I used the tech 4 scout to scout out every planet, so I plot a path through the easy planets, fairly deep into enemy space. I get maybe 3 jumps from their homeworlds (which are adjacent). My strategy is to basically set group move on and move from one gate to another. By the time my ships are at the 2nd gate I have gotten the full 2000 research and I have enough ships to protect my research vessels. I move through about 8 planets and end up back at my base with about 300 ships left.

Now, up until this point I have had basically no problems from the AI attacking my homeworld. Neither are turtle, one is sledgehammer and one is osmething else geared towards offense. They would send groups of 30-40 ships but my defenses would smack them down.

I use my newly found research to beef up my turrets and am in the process of rebuilding my fleet when I see that AI1 is massing for an attack. Hrm, have not seen that message before. I put about 4X as many turrets as normal on the wormhole he is about to come through and start moving a small fleet to that system in case there is a problem.

Well there is a problem. He jumps in 750 Lvl 4 ships and totally decimates me. I have to retreat all of my ships back to the homeworld as he slowly takes over my buffer planets. I have enough ships to take him out (barely) and am about to start rebuilding, however I lost maybe 4 systems and have about 30 ships left. total.

Question, why did this happen? I had not seen an attack like this for the first 8 hours of play. The AI progress lvl is around 235. Was it because I got close to his homeworld? I think its kind of cool to have to fight off a big attack, but not so cool that I basically go from having to defend against 30-40 lvl 1 or 2 ships to 750 lvl 4 ships. 

Ok, lets see if I can salvage this.

[Revenantus]

You've just experienced your first cross-planet attack.

Once the concentration of ships at an AI planet reaches a sufficient number (approximately 3000), the AI may choose to launch an attack from the planet. The AI will usually free around 1000-1500 of its ships to attack you, though it can potentially send up to 3000 ships.

In the case of Tech IV planets this is particularly dangerous as all of the ships it will send against you will be Tech IV. To prevent the number of ships from reaching too high a number, you can destroy the Command Station and Warp Gate at that planet to prevent reinforcements, or you can destroy some or all of the Command Posts at the planet to slow the rate of reinforcement there.

[eRe4s3r]

Indeed, but most importantly, don't do a "fleet stand-off" fight with that many ships, try to lure them and retreat once you pulled a group, wittle it down and instantly produce reserves (you can do that order stuff paused)

I managed to defeat a 1500 IV ship raid with about the same number of ships and a lot of attrition fights over 6 planets - so yeah i lost those for a while but its not like you can't take them back ;p

Sadly i lost to the second raid which was about the same size and came totally un-predictable from half-way across the galaxy (so i had no clue which route it would take.. ) ah well

But generally after 8 hours on DIF 7 - you were asking for it ;p DIF 7 is not NORMAL, dif 7 is HARD - 5 is normal, 6 is normal with a shot flavor, and 7 is an entirely different world.

I actually play on Dif 5 now with 200% handicap for the ai (to simulate a 7+ without crossplanet attacks) because those are just killer ;p

[maritime]

I just had 2 more attacks of 750 ships from different systems, just when I had almost recovered from the first one. Dead and dead. oh well, I guess I wont turtle too much next time. I was only expanding in one direction and had the other side of the galaxy basically on lock down since the beginning of the game and had not expanded much in that direction... or maybe I need some nukes next time ;-)

I think the raids would not be so bad if they came more frequently / were smaller at the beginning. Maybe have a 250 raid 3 hours in to let me know that there is something I should pay attention to over there ;-)

Ok question, I think the only systems that say the AI is alerted to me, reinforcements are probable are the ones directly adjacent to my systems? correct?

Would it be a viable strategy then to have many open wormholes to my planets so their reinf are spread thin? In this game I basically pushed on them until I had a good defensive position (1 enemy wormhole into my base) and then turtled on that system and pushed somewhere else. Usually the adjacent system was a LVL 4 and I stopped because I couldnt take it down, problem is that I think the AI dumped all his reinforcements into those systems and that is why I had so many cross planet attacks. Oh well, next time.

[x4000]

I think the raids would not be so bad if they came more frequently / were smaller at the beginning. Maybe have a 250 raid 3 hours in to let me know that there is something I should pay attention to over there ;-)

That's definitely currently under consideration.  Partly because of your issue of them being too strong, and also from another issue of them later being too weak if you can survive the first onslaught.  This is a relatively new mechanic, and is something still being finalized to a degree in the new economic system.

Ok question, I think the only systems that say the AI is alerted to me, reinforcements are probable are the ones directly adjacent to my systems? correct?

Generally, yes.  Also next to planets not owned by anyone.  And if you take a big fleet out into enemy territory, that will also temporarily alert the planets near those.

Would it be a viable strategy then to have many open wormholes to my planets so their reinf are spread thin?

Yes, that can work pretty well.  Also, you can "neuter" the big planets earlier in by killing all the command posts at them, but leaving the command station and its forces.  The number of ships the AI can build at a given planet is dependant on how many command posts/stations are there, so you can limit it to a certain degree by killing those.

[maritime]

When you say that they are too weak, am I not supposed to have a chance to survive a planetary invasion? Then I won, somewhat!

A cool game mechanic might be a little more warning (time wise) as they are gathering for their assault. I think I would have more than 3 minutes notice if some guy is amassing a thousand ships one galaxy over... this might give a player a little more time to try to get all their available ships into the system and have a real epic battle, but the extra time (say 10 minutes) would not really be enough to produce more ships to make a difference in the fight... if you are going to get stomped you are going to get stomped.


Reinforcement question:

planet map A - B - C
                     |
                     D

I own A, computer owns B, C, and D.

If I turtle on A the computer will stack all his reinforcements on B.

If I conquer B the computer will split the same number of reinforcements between C and D, assuming I do not attack any of hte command stations on them, which will each receive roughly 1/2 the amount of reinforcements that would have gone on to B with the full number of command stations.

If I move on to B, kill everything but the main command and warp gate, the retreat back to A... what now? Will he still reinforce C and D, or will he still put all his reinforcements on B? Is a reinforcement a set # of ships or does it depend on the number of command centers on that planet? For example, will he reinforce 100 ships, but he is only able to put 10 on B because I killed all the command centers rather than the full 100, so the rest go elsewhere?

I guess the question is does the AI get a set number of planets to reinforce (he can reinforce 100 ships to a planet with 5 command posts or 20 to a planet with 1 command post as 1 reinforcement) or a set number of ships to reinforce that he must spread out according to the available command centers?

Also, if I neuter a planet will he ever rebuild the mines ect. that I destroyed? Do the metal and crystal mines do anything for the CPU reinforcement wise?

great game, thanks.

[x4000]

When you say that they are too weak, am I not supposed to have a chance to survive a planetary invasion? Then I won, somewhat!

No, I meant that once you get used to surviving them, they never get any stronger, so they start out too strong and then later are too weak.  They need to be more balanced over time.

A cool game mechanic might be a little more warning (time wise) as they are gathering for their assault. I think I would have more than 3 minutes notice if some guy is amassing a thousand ships one galaxy over... this might give a player a little more time to try to get all their available ships into the system and have a real epic battle, but the extra time (say 10 minutes) would not really be enough to produce more ships to make a difference in the fight... if you are going to get stomped you are going to get stomped.

People start complaining when I give timers that are too long.  For now I think the timing is okay, it encourages the placement of good defenses everywhere.  For that matter, even once the timer runs out it takes a bit of time for the AI ships to get wherever they are going, so that gives you more time, too.

Reinforcement question:

planet map A - B - C
                     |
                     D

I own A, computer owns B, C, and D.

If I turtle on A the computer will stack all his reinforcements on B.

Yes.  Until B fills up, in which case he will start putting them elsewhere -- maybe on C and D, or maybe on E, F, Q, Z, A1, A2, etc.

If I conquer B the computer will split the same number of reinforcements between C and D, assuming I do not attack any of hte command stations on them, which will each receive roughly 1/2 the amount of reinforcements that would have gone on to B with the full number of command stations.

Yes, you can be assured that he will not place reinforcements on any planets that do not have an alert level on them, unless all of the planets with an alert level have filled up.  "Filling up" depends on the number of guard posts and command stations at that planet.

If I move on to B, kill everything but the main command and warp gate, the retreat back to A... what now? Will he still reinforce C and D, or will he still put all his reinforcements on B? Is a reinforcement a set # of ships or does it depend on the number of command centers on that planet? For example, will he reinforce 100 ships, but he is only able to put 10 on B because I killed all the command centers rather than the full 100, so the rest go elsewhere?

The number of ships that it takes to "fill up" B will then be vastly reduced, and so it will more quickly start spilling over to wherever else in the galaxy.  Maybe C and D, but often not.  Sometimes on their home planet or other planets they want to defend more for whatever reason.  They can't do any more to short-term defend against the planets you directly threaten, so they move out and accomplish other stuff instead.

I guess the question is does the AI get a set number of planets to reinforce (he can reinforce 100 ships to a planet with 5 command posts or 20 to a planet with 1 command post as 1 reinforcement) or a set number of ships to reinforce that he must spread out according to the available command centers?

Yes, a set number of planets per reinforcement event.  This is dependent on how many planets do not belong to the AI.  This is discussed in more detail here:  http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_AI_Reinforcements  The ships are a set number per planet, roughly speaking, so if there are fewer guard posts then it will reinforce more heavily at the remaining ones.  But it's using rough percentiles, not fixed numbers, so the numbers won't line up exactly.  It's in your favor to have fewer posts there, let's just say.

Also, if I neuter a planet will he ever rebuild the mines ect. that I destroyed? Do the metal and crystal mines do anything for the CPU reinforcement wise?

By "neuter," I'm referring to leaving the command station -- so the planet still belongs to the AI.  In that case, they will rebuild/add mines (in the sense of bombs/mines, not harvesters/mines) but only at the remaining command posts/stations and wormholes.  They will never add more guard posts in at this point -- the "mines" you were referring to.  They gain no resource benefit from any structures, the AI does not use resources.  It's productivity is based on: AI Progress, # Planets it does not control, # guard posts at each planet.  So when you cut down on the guard posts at a planet, you majorly hamper its productivity locally, but that does nothing to affect the overall productivity of the AI elsewhere.

great game, thanks.

Thanks!