AI low cap ships

[Fluffiest]

ships like Electric Shuttles, Snipers, Teleport Battle Stations, Sentinel Frigates, and Zenith Electric bombers

All of those kinda-low-cap ships are fine.

Well, I hear a lot of complaining about Zenith Bombards, but that's probably just a problem with that one ship type.

Because the former are so low-cap they feel more like bonus starships than fleetships.

Yes, but with the dps and low cost of fleetships. More to the point, AI starship use is heavily restricted, but its low-cap fleetship use isn't.

Additionally, many low-cap ships get immunities just from being low-cap, like tractor or reclamation immunity, and secondary mechanics all favor low ship numbers (transport unloads, cloakers, eyes, and AoE).

Yes, that's pretty much my point. If the ultra-low-cap ships were treated like proper starships, or if they were rebalanced to have a cap of 24 rather than 5, you wouldn't see this kind of problem with them.

[chemical_art]

ships like Electric Shuttles, Snipers, Teleport Battle Stations, Sentinel Frigates, and Zenith Electric bombers

All of those kinda-low-cap ships are fine.

Well, I hear a lot of complaining about Zenith Bombards, but that's probably just a problem with that one ship type.

I think that is in part because Bombards are one of a select few that are truly made to kill low cap ships 

[TechSY730]

Once I get back home, I will post the idea onto mantis to refactor very low cap ships (<=5 cap) as bonus starships, because AFIAK, I was the first to post that idea on the forums

In fact, long ago, I posted a weaker form of this idea on mantis, and it was rejected (I will add it as a related issue though)

[TechSY730]

OK, I made the suggestion on mantis.

9987: Refactor very low cap fleet ships into bonus starships

Vote up if you like.

[KDR_11k]

ships like Electric Shuttles, Snipers, Teleport Battle Stations, Sentinel Frigates, and Zenith Electric bombers

All of those kinda-low-cap ships are fine.

Well, I hear a lot of complaining about Zenith Bombards, but that's probably just a problem with that one ship type.

I think that is in part because Bombards are one of a select few that are truly made to kill low cap ships 

The problem arises from "low cap" here meaning "anything appearing in lower numbers than the Zombards". In the hands of the AI that can mean the entire human fleet.

[chemical_art]

The problem arises from "low cap" here meaning "anything appearing in lower numbers than the Zombards". In the hands of the AI that can mean the entire human fleet.

So, in a situation where the AI has 7.5 times the fleet numberst as the human fleet (bombards have a fleet cap of .2 compared to triangle ships so cost the AI 5 times , then the ai pays 50% more still as a unique coefficent. 5 * 1.5 = 7.5) there is a problem that the human fleet is annihilated?

It would be like lobbing your MK I and II fleet (600 ships on normal caps) against an AI fleet of 4500 triangle ships. If you manage to create such a situation, you have created a challenge and must be creative.

If the player relys on low cap ships, whether it be low cap fleetships or starships then yes, there will be more of a struggle. But this very thread has highlighted the very many advantages low cap ships have over high caps one, so I don't find what is wrong to have one unit that turns the tables and is less effective across the board against high cap ships.

[KDR_11k]

Unlike e.g. 4.5k fighters those Zombards will prevent their targets from doing any damage at all. All units that fall to their first volley do not get to participate in the fight at all. Well, maybe completely outnumbering the human forces is a bit extreme as an example but they effectively reduce your force size by their own number.

[chemical_art]

And those 4.5 fighters will still kick your ass. If you want to compare apples to apples (bonus ship vs bonus ship) the bulletproof fighter has 2x the health and speed in return for 80% of the base dps of the zombard (and 3x the bonus dps)

Bombers, zombards counters, have both a higher dps and a higher bonus then the zombards.

So you break the initial volley with your frigates. If you haven't managed to anger more then then equivalent of 7.5 times the size of your frigate fleet, they will survive the barrage. If they don't, so what? You just ate half a minutes worth of a force over 7.5 times your size, 30 seconds is the equivilant of a EMP. Send in your bombers and rest of fleet, and watch the bombers alone dish out damage three times as fast cap wise then those bombards. 

Zombards are only hard if you either get yourself into a strategic black hole in which case a single EMP or raiding[baiting] elsewhere  can dig you out of such a bad decision. They are very frail, very prone to overkill, slow, and have poor bonus dps.

[Faulty Logic]

And those 4.5 fighters will still kick your ass.

No, they won't.

There are a bunch of tactics that can be used to deal with large numbers of fleetships that can't work on huge Zenith Bombard balls.

But even assuming they would win, each wave of my ships would do significant damage to the fighter fleet. With zombards, I don't have that option, because my ships get off exactly one volley if they are lucky.

This all stems from the zombards reaching a critical mass, where they can one-shot your fleet while taking negligible damage in return. Especially if for some reason (SF) there are large numbers of zombards not near a wormhole.

[chemical_art]

And those 4.5 fighters will still kick your ass.

No, they won't.

I would like to see a save of a pure fleet flight of this [I and II triangle ships alone creaming 4.5k fighters] (and not of using defenses)

There are a bunch of tactics that can be used to deal with large numbers of fleetships that can't work on huge Zenith Bombard balls.

Just as there are tactics that can only be used to counter bombard balls. Or blade spawners balls. Or melee balls. Or nenzul balls.

But even assuming they would win, each wave of my ships would do significant damage to the fighter fleet. With zombards, I don't have that option, because my ships get off exactly one volley if they are lucky.

Again, if you have dug yourself into said hole, you can also dig out of it through baiting, emp's, or moving around said ball. The answer of "lobbing a sledgehammer" shouldn't be the answer to everything.

This all stems from the zombards reaching a critical mass, where they can one-shot your fleet while taking negligible damage in return. Especially if for some reason (SF) there are large numbers of zombards not near a wormhole.

And this is not a unique concept at all. It happens to all craft.

[Faulty Logic]

I would like to see a save of a pure fleet flight of this (and not of using defenses)

I don't have one. But imagine a two-city FS fleet, or an all-nebulae-finished champion fleet. Now add riot starships. Either wins against 4.5k fighters, but not the equivalent cap-count of zombards.
Such a fleet would also win against 4.5k bombers, the triangle ship with the best multipliers, but not zombards.

I would like to see a save of a pure fleet flight of this [I and II triangle ships alone creaming 4.5k fighters] (and not of using defenses)

Why the heck would I commit my fleet to that? Obviously it's a losing battle.

And this is not a unique concept at all. It happens to all craft.

It never happens to anything with a normal or higher cap. They can be tractored, get stuffed into easily-kiteable carriers, etc.

Again, if you have dug yourself into said hole, you can also dig out of it through baiting, emp's, or moving around said ball. The answer of "lobbing a sledgehammer" shouldn't be the answer to everything.

I never said that "lob sledgehammer" was the answer to everything. Nor did I say that there was no way to deal with the zombards. It simply hurts more to deal with them than almost any other AI ship, which indicates they are overpowered. And I "dug myself in" by starting the game.

[TechSY730]

Agreed that zombards are OP (for both humans and AI).

Also, the nature of the zombards means that their "critical mass" point is a good deal earlier than most other ship types, even if you adjust for caps, which is a strong argument for why their cap stats should be below the flee ship balance point.

As for getting nigh uncounterable numbers (of anything) very early in the game, on difficulty <10, without doing something silly to trigger it, that is a sign of something going wrong.
Can you post a save?

[chemical_art]

I don't have one. But imagine a two-city FS fleet, or an all-nebulae-finished champion fleet. Now add riot starships. Either wins against 4.5k fighters, but not the equivalent cap-count of zombards.

That's not at all the same. You are taking an equivalent force of human fleetball versus an equivalent to a "overpowered" Zombards, because the argument was they cream mixed fleets. Now you are changing it to saying a triangle ship is not going to fare as well against a small cap,ultra-heavy craft as the craft made to attack small cap, ultra-heavy craft. Of course! Just as if you yourself sent in bombers alone against those 4.5k fighters. The issue I contend with as that Zombards are overpowered, not that they don't have a niche.

And this is not a unique concept at all. It happens to all craft.

It never happens to anything with a normal or higher cap. They can be tractored, get stuffed into easily-kiteable carriers, etc.

All the more reason to have a ship that counters those low cap ships with those immunities.

Again, if you have dug yourself into said hole, you can also dig out of it through baiting, emp's, or moving around said ball. The answer of "lobbing a sledgehammer" shouldn't be the answer to everything.

I never said that "lob sledgehammer" was the answer to everything.


And I "dug myself in" by starting the game.

If you engage the bombards when they don't outnumber you fleet 3:1 then they are fine. They take out a sliver of your fleet, then you beat them down quickly because they are so frail and eat up ai fleet points. If they "bunch up" to get to large relative to your fleet, then you don't try to engage them head up but bait them to break up.

[TechSY730]

Maybe disallow fleet ships below a certain cap and/or above a certain range and/or below a certain speed to be added to special forces?

It seems that many of the checks to keep the AI from getting too abusive are sidestepped when spawning for special forces. This would harshly deal with that by forcibly removing the "worst case".

Also, special forces is supposed to be a somewhat "rapid", pseudo-expendable dynamic defense mechanism. Adding things to it that are counter to those goals sort of screws with the balance.


You would still have to face the "wrath" of things like zombards and Z elec bombers in waves, reinforcements, exo-waves, and threat-fleet.

[Faulty Logic]

on difficulty <10

Ah. I think I see the problem.

@chemical_art: you asked for an example and I gave it.