Author Topic: AI low cap ships  (Read 14058 times)

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #45 on: December 06, 2012, 09:55:03 am »
Agree that Zombards and TDLs still need a nerf, for both humans and the AI.

However, I am not seeing what you are saying about low cap ships.

If you are saying that the low cap and high cap ships do not have their cap stat balance targets adjusted for their strengths and weaknesses (less damage decay for low cap ships, more ability to "clog up" shots and causing wasted firepower by overkill for high cap ships), then you are right. This has been acknowledged before, and I think even Keith said that he is soliciting numbers for how the balance targets for different stats should vary over cap.

If you are saying that some of the high cap ships have cap stats just plain inferior to other ships, you are right on that too. The "balance pass" on the fleet ship types have not been accomplished yet.

If you are saying that the AI are not paying enough for low cap ships, then that is a bug.

If you are saying that, say, 2x cap of a low cap ships is inherently more valuable than a 2x cap of high cap ships (even if cap stats are adjusted to factor in their different pros/cons properly), then that is a much more interesting "problem".
I have stated in the past that it would be nice to have the ultra low cap ships (<= 5 cap) be treated as bonus starships, which would handle one extreme case, thus easing how difficult the balance of the "adjustment" formulas should be.

However, it wouldn't do much for things like zombards, as they still have a high enough cap to deserve fleet ship status.

I also think part of the issue is that the AI is rather poor at microing mid-battle and tactically moving ships around (group move rather than stream in, send in high cap stuff first to eat alpha, then send in the heavy DPSers, etc). Both of these (especially in intelligent tactics in moving fleets around) are important to get the full impact of high cap ships.
Also, the impact of high cap ships on a battle suffer from visibility issues. They do change a battle, but in ways it is hard to directly observe with short "snapshots" of data.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 10:13:30 am by TechSY730 »

Offline Faulty Logic

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,194
  • Bane of the AI
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #46 on: December 06, 2012, 11:19:11 am »
Quote
If you are saying that, say, 2x cap of a low cap ships is inherently more valuable than a 2x cap of high cap ships (even if cap stats are adjusted to factor in their different pros/cons properly), then that is a much more interesting "problem".
That was (basically) what I was saying. And that the AI should therefore pay more for a cap of SBSs than gatlings.

There are simply too many shots per second for overkill to be as significant a factor as damage decay.

I was also trying to say that something like 25 caps of a low-capper reaches a kind of "critical mass" which is very tedious to deal with (your normal fleet is shot to peices before killing more than a couple ships, you can't effectively separate the group, and  even warheads don't kill it (could be solved w/more warheads, but then we hit aip issues)).

But 25 caps of normal ships doesn't have this problem.

The fact that we see ~20 caps of low-capppers but not triangles also bears investigation.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 11:20:57 am by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #47 on: December 06, 2012, 11:33:30 am »
I think this is more an issue with high-cap ships not being strong enough.  Once high and low cap ships are equally deadly (roughly), it will be easier to judge if the AI is getting too many ships.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #48 on: December 06, 2012, 11:58:15 am »
Quote
If you are saying that, say, 2x cap of a low cap ships is inherently more valuable than a 2x cap of high cap ships (even if cap stats are adjusted to factor in their different pros/cons properly), then that is a much more interesting "problem".
That was (basically) what I was saying. And that the AI should therefore pay more for a cap of SBSs than gatlings.

Hmm, well there is something that the current AI cost "model" (ship caps only right now) does not account for. Resource costs and build time costs (both cap and per unit). This means that the AI is at an advantage when getting a ship type with high build costs (it doesn't have to pay metal and crystal to churn them out, we do, thus removing one balance point) and build times (the AI can spawn the unit instantaneously the moment it decides it wants some, which includes replacement times, thus removing another balance point). For ships close to the standard cap, these things don't really skew the cost "model" too much. But in the case of extremes (very high cap and low cap ships), this lack of accounting for a very important part of the ship's balance starts becoming very noticable (cheaping the use of high cap ships in AI hands, and boosting the usefulness of low cap ships in AI hands)

It would be tricky, but a revised formula for AI "cost" that takes into account not only ship cap but also individual build times and cap build times (but much more focus on individual build times) I think would go great ways to alleviating this issue. (And thus, targeting AI abuse of low cap ships without penalizing low cap ships explicitly, and also buff the AI use of low per ship build time high cap ships as well)

(Notice, I am not calling for ship resource cost to be factored in. I am assuming that the AI has enough resources stockpiled such that they can really build anything, and indeed have a large stash of them built "elsewhere")

Quote
There are simply too many shots per second for overkill to be as significant a factor as damage decay.

Agreed, it is less of a factor (in large part because we have ships with 5/96 ~= .052 the standard cap (5 ships), but no ships with 96/5 = 19.2 times the cap (1843), aka, we are more skewed towards the lower end. Also a large part is the lack of physics/terrain effects (almost all ships can target and hit anything in their range, regardless of how much is in the way) and part of it is the "has my target died before my shot reached" refund)

Which is one of the reasons why lower cap ships should have a slight penalty to their cap stats (which ones, I am not sure yet) compared to what high cap ships get to their adjustment.

Also, many of the high cap ships (due to being older than most of the low cap ships) have not been updated recently, so many (but not all) of their cap stats for many (but not all) high cap ship types are currently just plain inferior in every way.
In other words:
I think this is more an issue with high-cap ships not being strong enough.  Once high and low cap ships are equally deadly (roughly), it will be easier to judge if the AI is getting too many ships.

Quote
The fact that we see ~20 caps of low-capppers but not triangles also bears investigation.

Yea, I suspect that either there is a lurking bug somewhere (perhaps just insidious rounding error), or the "debt is canceled at the end of the galactic reinforcement cycle" is a no longer negligible effect now the planetary ship type "preferences" can be applied to some planets.

Sadly, neither rounding error nor the effect of the second thing I described are things easily gleaned from the log files in terms of long running game effects.

Offline Wanderer

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,579
  • If you're not drunk you're doing it wrong.
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2012, 02:01:50 pm »
One of the things I've noticed in my games, particularly with the SF, is that I end up killing off all the little guys when our fleets make contact, and if I'm not taking the system (passing through, finding a DC, whatever) and my fleet moves on, it starts to skew the numbers heavily towards the low-cappers.  Threatfleet started doing the same thing as my turrets would 'clean up' the little guys on my satellites before the worlds fell, but the big guys just kept building.  Zombards in particular are a problem in this one particular epic game I'm playing because they're slower than the main SF fleet, so they're always late to the party.  I've started to take on the SF fleet in toto to make sure the problem doesn't re-arise.

Another reason low-cap is overpowered in PC hands is AI Eyes.  A cap of gatlings risks firing off the Nuclear Eye.  A cap of Maws doesn't.
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2012, 02:17:06 pm »
I agree eyes are an issue for high cap ships. Whether it is a reasonable issue to have or not I have not decided. Similarly, if it is an issue, I'm not sure of an alternate "am I overwhelmed?" logic that is simple and transparent to players seeking to avoid setting them off.

As for threat fleet and special forces, I think some or all of a single threat fleet or special forces group should group move together, to help counter this tendency for them to fill up with the slower stuff. (The reason why you would want only some of them to group move instead of all is to prevent all of SF from becoming really unresponsive if the AI unlocks a slow fleet ship type)

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #51 on: December 06, 2012, 02:44:44 pm »
I'm not sure of an alternate "am I overwhelmed?" logic that is simple and transparent to players seeking to avoid setting them off
Firepower.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2012, 02:49:17 pm »
I'm not sure of an alternate "am I overwhelmed?" logic that is simple and transparent to players seeking to avoid setting them off
Firepower.

Two issues.
1. That conflicts with the "am I vastly outfirepowered? If so, free everything and retreat and/or bum rush them" logic
2. Firepower, while it is useful, isn't very intuitive to new players. In fact, it isn't very useful for determining "on the fly" decisions (like, how much should I retreat to turn off this activated eye or how much can I send in without triggering the eye) for both new and experienced players.

Offline Mánagarmr

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,272
  • if (isInRange(target)) { kill(target); }
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #53 on: December 06, 2012, 03:12:26 pm »
Yeah, I instinctively thought of firepower too, but it really is a very obtuse thing and very hard to properly gauge at a glance so I would definitely not want that.
Click here to get started with Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports.

Thank you for contributing to making the game better!

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #54 on: December 06, 2012, 03:14:44 pm »
Atm I have no idea how Firepower is calculated. I just know the higher the FP is the.. more firepower there is O_o
Firepower should take into account all stats. Dps, multipliers, range, speed and health.

How about something like this:
Ship name
Firepower: DPS*((multiplier1+multiplier2+multiplier3)/3)*TheAmountOfMultipliers(3 in this case)*Range*Health*Speed/1EXP15
Cap Firepower: FP*Cap=CapFP

Munitions Booster
Firepower: 3000*6*3*6000*259000*56/1EXP15=4,699 FP
Cap Firepower: 4,699*19=89,28 FP

Bulletproof Fighter
Firepower: 1625*6*3*5200*224000*76/1EXP15=2,589 FP
Cap Firepower: 2,589*88=227,086 FP

Laser Gatling
600*1,8*3*6000*39200*68/1EXP15=0,05 FP
0,05*272=14,09 FP

Spire Stealth Battleship
Firepower: 36000*1,4*2*7000*1925000*52/1EXP15=70,6 FP
Cap Firepower: 70,6*5=353,15 FP

Zenith Bombard
Firepower: 6000*2*3*33000*378000*44/1EXP15=19,76
Cap Firepower: 19,76*24=474 FP

This wouldn't work with melee ships though cause they have 0 range.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 03:18:35 pm by Kahuna »
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #55 on: December 06, 2012, 03:35:50 pm »
I would like to see the current firepower equation before making a judgement.
Also, if you do (sum of multipliers / number of multipliers) * number of multipliers, isn't that the same of sum of multipliers?
Or did you mean (sum of multipliers / 3) * number of multipliers (that denominator always being 3 in this case)?


Anyways, I would probably would like to see that range factor should be logarithimic in its contribution, as after a certain point, each additional point of range gives diminishing returns (I don't know of a good base for the logarithm yet though).
Also, something sub-linear for the speed factor would be good too, but logarithmic seems to "slow" for this one. A nth-root or something? (Again, don't know a good n for that nth-root)


However, even if we did leave all the factors linear, it still would be tricky to tell at a glace how much can be sent in, even if the firepower of a single ship is displayed somehow. It would still be somewhat tricky if the firepower of the currently selected ships were displayed somehow.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2012, 03:52:29 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #56 on: December 06, 2012, 03:47:52 pm »
Firepower is based purely on non-bonus dps, and then multiplied by some constant (I forget which).  It used to factor health but that was actually worse in terms of the AI never wanting to attack, etc.

I want to remove FP altogether and replace it with the relative strength stuff that's based on cap, mark, and can be set directly if it doesn't follow the normal scale (turrets get *3 since they generally have 3x the dps of a fleet ship cap-for-cap, an armored golem is treated as some number of caps of mkV ships, etc).  But that would take a fair bit of time, particularly since a lot of stuff doesn't have a relative-strength computation yet (all the fleet ships, starships, etc do, but there's a lot of edge cases in this game).
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Kahuna

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,222
  • Kahuna Matata!
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2012, 12:11:53 am »
I would like to see the current firepower equation before making a judgement.
Also, if you do (sum of multipliers / number of multipliers) * number of multipliers, isn't that the same of sum of multipliers?
:o Ye ye simply sum of all multipliers! herp a derp
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Fluffiest

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 140
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2012, 05:55:00 am »
I just want to check - do people think the problem is just ultra-low-cap ships like Spire Maws, Blade Spawners, and Stealth Battleships, or does this extend to other low (but not ridiculously low) cap ships like Electric Shuttles, Snipers, Teleport Battle Stations, Sentinel Frigates, and Zenith Electric bombers? Because the former are so low-cap they feel more like bonus starships than fleetships.

Offline Faulty Logic

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,194
  • Bane of the AI
Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2012, 07:30:18 am »
Quote
ships like Electric Shuttles, Snipers, Teleport Battle Stations, Sentinel Frigates, and Zenith Electric bombers
All of those kinda-low-cap ships are fine.

Quote
Because the former are so low-cap they feel more like bonus starships than fleetships.
Yes, but with the dps and low cost of fleetships. More to the point, AI starship use is heavily restricted, but its low-cap fleetship use isn't.

Additionally, many low-cap ships get immunities just from being low-cap, like tractor or reclamation immunity, and secondary mechanics all favor low ship numbers (transport unloads, cloakers, eyes, and AoE).
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 07:37:28 am by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.