Author Topic: AI low cap ships  (Read 14073 times)

Offline Kahuna

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2012, 11:13:45 am »
Hmm.. ok. I think Tractor Platforms could use a small nerf. Their description says "Large, slow alien vessel is bristling with small guns but most importantly many tractor beams.--" "SLOW alien vessel" yet it's faster than Missile Frigate ::). (TP 56, MF 44)

Few suggestions:
#1: Decrease MarkI TPs health by 100k
#2: Decrease MarkI TPs health by 100k and increase range to 5000.
#3: Decrease MarkI TPs speed to 44
#4: Decrease MarkI TPs speed to 44 and increase range to 5000.
#5: Deacrese MarkI TPs health by 50k and speed to 50
#6: Deacrese MarkI TPs health by 50k and speed to 50 but increase range to 5000
I think 5 or 6 would be the best.
Those things are surprisingly powerful :o (In AI's and player's hands)
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
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Offline Trandrin

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2012, 11:32:32 am »
Think these guys got me in one of my AAR. They can be scary durable at later marks and in large numbers.

Offline rabican

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2012, 04:47:07 am »
Since the change to have planets have preferred ship type this isn't as a big issue anymore. Or its at least harder to detect :)

There are 2 places where its still issue :

SF , these have lots and lots of low cap ships. This is kinda bad, if they are eglible for CPA , i think i read they are.

Deepstrike, i think this just randomly picks from available ships, 1:1ratio between blade spawners and fighters as far as i can tell. Not a big deal as deepstrike should be quite rare, but should probably still be adjusted.

Barracks. Popping these just gives equal amount of all stuff  , probably.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 05:13:24 am by rabican »

Offline Niwantaw

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2012, 07:09:24 am »
My current fun AI favourite ship:




EDIT: That was around half an hour back. Just looked at it now and wondered what all the threat was. 2.2k of it was on this one planet.



...I think I found the SF rally point.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 07:14:28 am by Niwantaw »
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2012, 08:15:15 am »
Arrr so bright!
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Histidine

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2012, 08:54:18 am »
I'm slightly disappointed that the blob isn't railcluster-shaped.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2012, 09:54:59 am »
Are those the Railcluster icons?  They need more internal black etching.  They look too washed out compared to the other icons.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2012, 01:38:28 pm »
SF , these have lots and lots of low cap ships.
How exactly is this a bug, though?  If you watch the special forces log you'll see that it pays a proportionately higher price for each low-cap ship.  The SF popcap is also based on those relative strength values, not count.

Its chances for picking certain high-cap ships are higher partly due to certain role preferences (which is quite intentional), but also because of some other quirks of the way it picks things.  But that's not a bug, that's the AI preferring (for whatever) certain ship types over other ship types.  As we've talked about recently, a perfectly "balanced" force where each ship type has the same % of the total force strength actually makes for a less varied player experience than if every force were 100% from one specific type.

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This is kinda bad, if they are eglible for CPA , i think i read they are.
There I can see an issue, at least in part.  Some background on the design philosophy:

1) The AI has three basic categories of mobile-military ship: Passive Defensive, Active Defensive, and Offensive.

2) The acquisition of all three kinds must respect the relative strength (e.g. ship cap) of the ship type being "bought".  The only genuine exceptions to this right now are:
- The hybrids' acquisition of its escorts, which partly respects it through having a lower chance of picking most of the low-cap types.
- Deepstrike-generated threat, which partly respects it by omitting most of the low-cap types from the possible set entirely.  This is a rare enough case that it's not a big deal, but I do want to convert this to doing something else that's more interesting and better respecting this rule.

3) The AI may not use Passive Defensive ships for anything other than defending the planets upon which they are spawned.
- This is basically just ships spawned at the beginning of the game and by reinforcements and assigned to guard specific objects (guard posts and command stations).
- Ships in barracks basically fit this too, except they're even more passive (not doing anything).

4) The AI may use Active Defensive ships to defend any AI-owned planet, but may not send them to a planet it does not own (if they're sent to an AI planet that becomes non-AI during that process, the effect varies, but in general the ships need to return to AI space after combat) :
- Special Forces ships.
- Strategic Reserve ships.

5) The AI may use Offensive ships however it pleases, whenever it pleases, up to and including taking them all together and bumrushing the player's home command station:
- Normal "freed" ships (however it got that way).
- Exo ships.
- Threat-Fleet ships.
- Hybrids and their escorts.

6) Certain specific conditions allow the AI to "reassign" Passive Defensive or Active Defensive ships to Offensive (iirc nothing can lead to reassignment from P-D to A-D) :
- If the player attacks P-D ships, they generally go offensive (threat) immediately.
- A CPA allows the AI to reassign X ships from P-D or A-D to offensive.


What you're objecting to, I think, is that point 6 doesn't say anything about the AI having to "pay extra" for reassigning a low-cap ship to offensive duty, at least in the CPA context.

I can understand that, but the objection cannot be levelled against Special Forces specifically, because it's just as true of drafting guard ships, strategic reserves, or barracks ships for CPA duty.

I don't mind switching CPAs to "pay" proportionately when reassigning, even though the AI has already paid to create the ship in the first place.  But there's one big problem we'd run into:

The "number of ships" listed by the CPA announcement would become basically meaningless, as the actual number could wind up being 1/25th of that, or 4x that, depending on what exactly gets freed.

So, how would you handle that?  Just stop showing an expected ship count on the CPA announcement and let the player sweat it from not knowing if it's 100 ships or 10,000 until it actually launches (it can continue telling them the quantity actually freed per mark) ?

Quote
Barracks. Popping these just gives equal amount of all stuff  , probably.
All ships that go into the seeded-at-start-of-game barracks are paid for in a process that respects relative strength of the individual unit.  It may prefer certain low-cap ships in that process but again, the AI having preferences is not a bug.

Barracks created mid-game draw on existing ships, so that just gets back to how they were paid for.


Are those the Railcluster icons?  They need more internal black etching.  They look too washed out compared to the other icons.
I agree; I was really surprised no one said anything during the beta, but that was one reason I didn't push the issue with Chris very much.  He did redo the far-zoom icons a few days before the official release, but some do still appear to have way less internal contrast than what we're used to.  LotS's units have a lot less than the base game units (imho) but more than most of the AS units.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2012, 03:11:58 pm »
Since Deep Strike threat is generally a fairly weak deterrent, I think Deep Strike should spawn all a single ship type each pulse, and have a small chance (maybe 5-10%) of switching to a new ship type.  It can be scaled for ship cap, but I think homogeneous ship spawns are more likely to pick a ship type that truly threatens the player than a random sampling of available ship types.  Just the threat that you might get 10-15 spawns of Zenith Bombards, SSBs, Eyebots, or what have you, should be enough that people think carefully about triggering Deep Strike threat for too long.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2012, 04:55:23 pm »
Personally, the reason Deep Strike threat isn't such a big deal is that it spawns at the exo gate on the AI HW's.  This both allows you to contain it and know the pathing.

Have it spawn at random warp-gates, and it'll suddenly be a whole different issue.
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Offline rabican

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2012, 05:01:31 pm »


Its chances for picking certain high-cap ships are higher partly due to certain role preferences (which is quite intentional), but also because of some other quirks of the way it picks things.  But that's not a bug, that's the AI preferring (for whatever) certain ship types over other ship types.  As we've talked about recently, a perfectly "balanced" force where each ship type has the same % of the total force strength actually makes for a less varied player experience than if every force were 100% from one specific type.


The problem is that the AI values low cap ships so much that it feels like i'm facing that one ship type and that one ship type only in whole game. And then some other stuff that doesn't really matter, as the firepower is 20 to 60 times less than the low cap ship.


CPAs and low cap ships well... i don't know. If you got similiar games where in one both AIs have swarmer type bonus ship and in other they have Low cap one  and you get similiar CPA alert, later one will be between 2.5 to 5 times harder wave than the other.

Meh, i'm just tired of fighting these TDLs and ssbs !

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2012, 07:01:22 pm »
I feel that part of the issue is that low cap ships allow the AI to "cheese" the limitations that the various global cross-shiptype caps provide. For example, say that there is a 800 ship cap for defenders on one planet, or 3000 ship cap for special forces. Well, if the AI chose to "pack" these caps with low cap ships, then it can sort of bypass the whole point of these caps, to prevent the AI from "clustering" together a near uncountable amount of firepower/durability. Sure, it may take significantly longer for it to do so than if it chose higher cap ships, but given the average length of games, that doesn't really help very much.
This is why I suggested reintroducing the per-planet caps for certain low-cap ship types, but now that it is paying for them properly, they don't have to be quite as low as they were before. This would stop the potential cheese with the defender caps. For special forces, I would say each ship counts a weighted amount towards the cap, with lower cap ships eating more into the special forces cap, thus preventing them from getting things like 600 spire railclusters in special forces. Even if it had to pay severely in terms of time and other ships to do so, that doesn't really matter in the time scales players usually deal with.

These were rare occurrences before the "ship type/role preference" logic, but now that it is in place, this can very easily happen annoyingly often.

CPAs and low cap ships well... i don't know. If you got similiar games where in one both AIs have swarmer type bonus ship and in other they have Low cap one  and you get similar CPA alert, later one will be between 2.5 to 5 times harder wave than the other.

Similar issue here. But if it chose high cap ships for is CPA, yea, you will have to face a lot more firepower, but if you live, the AI is out that much more firepower to defend with (remember, it did have to "pay" more to get that number of low cap ships, which . If it chose high cap ships, the CPA may not be all that threatening, but they probably have plenty more of those ships somewhere (due to them being high caps, it got a lot of them for the same cost), so it still has plenty to defend with. So in this case, it balances out, assuming you can survive the CPA of course.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2012, 07:13:57 pm »
I feel that part of the issue is that low cap ships allow the AI to "cheese" the limitations that the various global cross-shiptype caps provide. For example, say that there is a 800 ship cap for defenders on one planet
How often does it hit that, though?

Quote
or 3000 ship cap for special forces
Iirc it hits the strength cap (which is based on relative strength) much before a hard-count cap comes into play.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2012, 07:31:13 pm »
I feel that part of the issue is that low cap ships allow the AI to "cheese" the limitations that the various global cross-shiptype caps provide. For example, say that there is a 800 ship cap for defenders on one planet
How often does it hit that, though?

I don't have hard numbers in front of me, but with the new "planetary ship type preference" logic, I would imagine it can get a appreciable fraction of this worst case uncomfortably often.
BTW, is this panetary ship type preference logic for all planets, or just some?

Quote
Quote
or 3000 ship cap for special forces
Iirc it hits the strength cap (which is based on relative strength) much before a hard-count cap comes into play.

Oh, there is a relative strength cap as well? You were one step ahead of me it seems. ;)

Offline Faulty Logic

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Re: AI low cap ships
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2012, 06:23:20 am »
Yes, I am an evil thread necromancer. But this is still a problem.

The main problem with large groups of low-cap ships is one of granularity. Inflicting meaningful casualties is a lot harder when every enemy unit has health in the millions.


Zombards: a combination of incredible range and alpha strike. Mainly problematic because the AI can get groups of these which can alpha a significant fraction of your fleet.

Reduce range and health.


TDLs: straight up OP in human hands, and much, much worse when used against you. They disrupt your fleet (which is okay, they are designed to do that). The problem comes from their incredibly high dps and health. Their base ship has a cap-dps comparable to a cap of bomber starships. That isn't even getting into the drones. The final problem is that they tank tons of damage before dying.

Seeing these in AI hands almost means getting riotIIIs with a grav module, or not using fleetships.

I would try reducing their health by half (or more), nerf the base-ship-dps into virtually nothing, and either remove drone damage, reduce drone spawn rate, OR make drones only pick up 3*mk ships.


TDLs/Zombards are extreme cases, but any large group of low-cap ships means a significant amount of time (from 10-45 minutes) grinding away at it. And in that time, I am not having fun with the game. (Note that a similar cap-count of normal or swarmer ships takes less than half as long to clean out).

Please make the AI spend more for any low-cap ship. Currently, they add far more to fleet effectiveness than spending points on other ships would.
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