AI Homeworld Defense

[Kahuna]

Ok sorry I ate my own words again.
AI 2's home world has only 1 Guard Post left. Then I'll clear the AI 1's home world and then the AI Home Command Stations.

[Vinraith]

Err, is 10/10 no longer supposed to be impossible? In the old days, at least, even being able to get to the AI Homeworlds on that difficulty was reason enough to bump up the difficulty of the game in the next patch.

well.. everything until the AI home worlds has been easy. including the 12500 ship CPA.

That would seem to imply a rather severe balance problem.

[Kahuna]

The ~16500 ship CPA I just stopped was much harder though. Actually had to use warheads this time.

EDIT: ps. it's the core turrets

[Vinraith]

The ~16500 ship CPA I just stopped was much harder though. Actually had to use warheads this time.

EDIT: ps. it's the core turrets

Yeah, I'd thought the core turrets were making defense too easy, though I hadn't realized the severity of the issue. Out of curiosity, how many core turret fabs did you capture, and how many did you hack?

[Kahuna]

The ~16500 ship CPA I just stopped was much harder though. Actually had to use warheads this time.

EDIT: ps. it's the core turrets

Yeah, I'd thought the core turrets were making defense too easy, though I hadn't realized the severity of the issue. Out of curiosity, how many core turret fabs did you capture, and how many did you hack?

Hacked 3 and captured 1:
Flak, Laser, Lightning and Sniper.

[Chthon]

The ~16500 ship CPA I just stopped was much harder though. Actually had to use warheads this time.

EDIT: ps. it's the core turrets

Yeah, I'd thought the core turrets were making defense too easy, though I hadn't realized the severity of the issue. Out of curiosity, how many core turret fabs did you capture, and how many did you hack?

Hacked 3 and captured 1:
Flak, Laser, Lightning and Sniper.

The limitation to core turrets is supposed to be power.  However I find that once you have enough planets, power becomes a non-issue.  Especially if you have a Zenith Power Generator or two.  Perhaps something needs to be looked into in the power balance, or the turrets just made to cost 50% more power?

Not really sure how I'd fix it.  However with 10+ worlds, I can usually afford to build all of my ships, all my core turrets in each world, and even have core beachheads in all neighboring worlds.  It does help to attrition the AI strikes quite a bit, even stalling out quite a few if I have core spider turrets.

[Toranth]

The ~16500 ship CPA I just stopped was much harder though. Actually had to use warheads this time.

EDIT: ps. it's the core turrets

Yeah, I'd thought the core turrets were making defense too easy, though I hadn't realized the severity of the issue. Out of curiosity, how many core turret fabs did you capture, and how many did you hack?

Even if you have all the Core turrets - Needle, Laser, MLRS, Missile, Sniper, Spider, Flak, Lightning - plus mini-Forts and a Mk III Military Command Station, 16,500 ships will obliterate your defense, unless you have something else major to back it up.  If you get those 16,500 ships to attack several systems in groups of a few thousand, then yes your defenses will work fairly well.

There needs to be some work done on the Core Turrets balance, but it isn't clear-cut OP.

[zoutzakje]

I think they should just put a cap per galaxy instead of a cap per planet on it, like all other turrets. You can pump all your worlds full with core turrets if you've hacked/captured enough, which makes defense easier than it should be if you play it right. If people think galaxy caps wouldn't be that useful, maybe double caps limit (like the rest of the turrets)?
I like that they're different than the rest though.... hmm.

How about this. We keep their caps limit the same, but we only allow each type of core turret to be build on one specific planet only. This way we won't be able to build massive core turret balls on each planet, given enough fabs/energy.

If we prevent 10/10 being playable again with this, then mission accomplished right?

[Vinraith]

The ~16500 ship CPA I just stopped was much harder though. Actually had to use warheads this time.

EDIT: ps. it's the core turrets

Yeah, I'd thought the core turrets were making defense too easy, though I hadn't realized the severity of the issue. Out of curiosity, how many core turret fabs did you capture, and how many did you hack?

Even if you have all the Core turrets - Needle, Laser, MLRS, Missile, Sniper, Spider, Flak, Lightning - plus mini-Forts and a Mk III Military Command Station, 16,500 ships will obliterate your defense, unless you have something else major to back it up.  If you get those 16,500 ships to attack several systems in groups of a few thousand, then yes your defenses will work fairly well.

There needs to be some work done on the Core Turrets balance, but it isn't clear-cut OP.

I wouldn't know, as I don't play anywhere near that level. Not sure how Kahuna's handling things, but he'd be the one to ask.

[Kahuna]

Not sure how Kahuna's handling things

So I have crazy defenses and am grinding the AI home worlds with Mark I-IV Neinzul Tigers and Assault Transports.
EDIT: I just realized Zarka doesn't have planetary Tachyon coverage. It's christmas.

[TechSY730]

Yea, if core turrets alone are making defense against 10/10 somewhat easy, and core turrets are not supposed to be a "cheese" option, then yea, that's a balance problem.

Galactic caps on core turrets seems like a reasonable nerf for them. Adjust stats as needed to keep them useful of course.


EDIT: Also, I agree that absurd strategic reserve points for 10/10 is not really something one can really complain about. If you see a bug making them behave differently than they should be, yea that's an issue. But for 10/10, well, the values aren't supposed to be balanced.

[Bognor]

But wasn't the whole point of core turrets (and mini-forts) to provide a means of distributed defense that does not excessively buff whipping boys?  They sort of need per-planet caps to fulfill that design goal.  Unless you mean they should have galaxy-wide caps in addition to per-planet caps?  A bit inelegant, but it could work.  Just increasing energy requirements would be simpler than introducing a new mechanic, though.

[TechSY730]

But wasn't the whole point of core turrets (and mini-forts) to provide a means of distributed defense that does not excessively buff whipping boys?  They sort of need per-planet caps to fulfill that design goal.  Unless you mean they should have galaxy-wide caps in addition to per-planet caps?  A bit inelegant, but it could work.  Just increasing energy requirements would be simpler than introducing a new mechanic, though.

Yea, that's sort of what I mean. Have both. But have the galactic cap be high compared to most stuff so you are unlikely to hit it until very late game. Like high enough to handle 10-20 planets worth of caps.

That does introduce a bit of UI oddity though. Which cap should be displayed? Which cap should be shown as the "how much you can build" under the build icon? If both, how does the UI accommodate that?

[Kahuna]

Oh never mind.. Zarka DOES have planetary Tachyon Beam Coverage. Didn't know that. Thought it was the AI Eyes.


Also what on earth is going on here? "External Invincibility Provided 563x". I mean it's not like I'd want to pop it.. was just wondering what da heck


Update about my defenses and Core Turrets.
A wave is just about to hit my whipping boy.



Sure the Core Turrets are very powerful but I'm sure I could have stopped a wave like this very easily without them too. It could have just taken a bit longer and I would have most likely unlocked Mark III Missile Turrets. In this situation I only have Mark I Missile Turrets (Mark IIs are protecting a Beachhead). Of course Mark III Missile Turrets would cost Knowledge unlike Core Turrets but they would do the job too. So I'd say Core Turrets aren't "µber OP" but they could use an Energy nerf (aka make them cost more Energy). At the moment one can easily just all Core Turrets on all planets and Beachheads without too much trouble. Their Energy cost should be nerfed so the player would have to choose between beachheading and defending.

[Kahuna]

Ok an update about AI home worlds:
This is how you can destroy AI home worlds at the moment:

2 of these

=


AI home worlds have planetary Tachyon Coverage but cloaking super boosters (Cloaker Starships) still work. AI's Tachyon Beam will only decloak the ships providing the cloaking super boosting (Cloaker Starships) so the Warheads will be decloaked only if the Cloaker Starships get destroyed or if you have too many ships next to the Cloaker Starships and the Cloaker Starships "decide" to cloak the ships instead of the warheads. Aka wtb micro.

So the Warheads will be used to destroy the Reserves and Special Forces.. and to damage the Force Fields protecting the AI Home Command Station AND to kill Guardians under the Force Fields. AI Home Command Stations them selves are now immune to Warheads (because that's how I won my last 10/10 game (by spamming Warheads until all Guard Posts and the CS was dead))