AI Homeworld Defense

[Fluffiest]

Of all the approaches suggested, the only one I don't like is bunching up all the guard posts at the centre of the AI homeworld. That removes any element of tactics, and just becomes throwing wave after wave after wave of ships at it in the hope that something will eventually crack.

(To reiterate; the other approaches I've seen are:

1) Spread out the guard posts as much as possible, using the "paranoid" subcommander algorithm, to reduce the problem of posts overlapping. Probably accompanied by a nerf to the range of a few posts like the Wrath Lance.

2) Move some of the core guard posts to the homeworlds. I posted a suggested seeding pattern a few pages back, which does its best to achieve an even distribution of posts regardless of how many core worlds there are.

3) Create clones of some of the core guard posts on the homeworlds which can be destroyed to bring down the real things, in the manner of the CSG networks.

4) Have some of the core posts start powered-down and invulnerable, with the AI bringing them online as you destroy other posts.

5) Provide a method - either by capturing core worlds or by hacking - to disable or destroy certain core posts or brutal posts.

6) Remove the concept of "brutal" posts and their hard-counter nature entirely; just divide core guard posts into combat and support types.

If I missed any, please let me know!

[Draco18s]

Of all the approaches suggested, the only one I don't like is bunching up all the guard posts at the centre of the AI homeworld. That removes any element of tactics, and just becomes throwing wave after wave after wave of ships at it in the hope that something will eventually crack.

The reason those of us who like it, like it, is because it is easy to balance.  The difficulty of "cracking" it can be fined tuned appropriately, rather than being "[Speed Bump | Brick Wall], which is determined long before you get a look at it."

[Fluffiest]

I think it's actually less easy to balance than any approach that allows you to attack the guard posts separately. Balancing each guard post in a vacuum is easier than balancing every possible combination, even if you can guarantee they're all going to be stacked in a pile.

[orzelek]

Would it be feasible to link stuff a bit:

Replace current CSG mechanic (which when enabled is very... limiting) with core and brutal guard posts behaving in same way. One of these would be Primary - others secondary - randomly chosen.

This way we would get rid of CSG's and still keep the very low AIP prevention since guard posts are not push overs now.

On H/W they could be arranged in a tight formation then - you would have a decision to make how much you need to weaken it to kill all others without insane losses.

[Draco18s]

I think it's actually less easy to balance than any approach that allows you to attack the guard posts separately. Balancing each guard post in a vacuum is easier than balancing every possible combination, even if you can guarantee they're all going to be stacked in a pile.

Actually no.

The current posts are balanced in a vacuum.  Which is why there's a problem.  It doesn't account for things like a Needler post showing up next to a Missile post (combined they counter something like 90% of all units, making them almost impossible to crack).

But if you assume that the giant blob has bonuses against "everything" then you can balance it because you know exactly the situation that it'll be in every time.

[Diazo]

I think it's actually less easy to balance than any approach that allows you to attack the guard posts separately. Balancing each guard post in a vacuum is easier than balancing every possible combination, even if you can guarantee they're all going to be stacked in a pile.

Actually no.

The current posts are balanced in a vacuum.  Which is why there's a problem.  It doesn't account for things like a Needler post showing up next to a Missile post (combined they counter something like 90% of all units, making them almost impossible to crack).

But if you assume that the giant blob has bonuses against "everything" then you can balance it because you know exactly the situation that it'll be in every time.

As the one who brought up the idea of moving all the guard posts next the home command, I don't want the other half of the change the guard posts require to make this feasible forgotten about.

Moving all the guard posts next the the AI's home command makes the AI HW a strength check, did you play the game up till now correctly? This then turns the AI's home command into a one-off fight that is over in a single attack (or two) that is resolved very quickly.

There would be no drawn out fights that take an hour (or hours) to crack an AI HW, the attack is over quickly either way.

Player wins? Nice work, that AI is dead.
Player loses? Your not strong enough, go get some more K/Fabs/Ships/etc. and come back and try again later.

D.

edit: Actually, that's a thought. For a quick-band aid fix how about this?

All the 'brutal' combat picks (tethuda,grav drone, wrath lance, I miss any?) get nerfed so they are not able to solo a fleet.
Remove the Core Fortress
Boost the AI Home-Command station so it has the health and 25% (15%? 35%?) the DPS of the core fortress, but no attack bonuses.
The intent being that this makes the AI Home Command station, which is the final thing you have to destroy, the most dangerous combatant in the system. So, rather then having it rely on other units to defend it, the AI Home Command is now an integral part of it's own defense.

This removes two of the big problems, the core fort shutting down anything not polycrystal, and the 'brutal' guard posts that can solo a fleet spawning close enough to another guard post that they are mutually supporting each other.

[Fluffiest]

I think it's actually less easy to balance than any approach that allows you to attack the guard posts separately. Balancing each guard post in a vacuum is easier than balancing every possible combination, even if you can guarantee they're all going to be stacked in a pile.

Actually no.

The current posts are balanced in a vacuum.  Which is why there's a problem.  It doesn't account for things like a Needler post showing up next to a Missile post (combined they counter something like 90% of all units, making them almost impossible to crack).

But if you assume that the giant blob has bonuses against "everything" then you can balance it because you know exactly the situation that it'll be in every time.

You misunderstood. The objective is to set up a system where the guard posts can be balanced in a vacuum, because you can guarantee that it will always be possible to attack them independently. If the guard posts are evenly spaced around the gravity well and don't have overlapping ranges, the situation you describe - a Core Needler and Core Missile post supporting each other - can't happen.

[Draco18s]

You misunderstood. The objective is to set up a system where the guard posts can be balanced in a vacuum, because you can guarantee that it will always be possible to attack them independently. If the guard posts are evenly spaced around the gravity well and don't have overlapping ranges, the situation you describe - a Core Needler and Core Missile post supporting each other - can't happen.

So my suggestion of using the nebula artificial distance multiplier...?

[keith.lamothe]

Wow, the forum software didn't think I needed to be notified of a 9-page threadsplosion on core mechaincs.  Interesting.  Perhaps the AI likes the way HWs are now.

Anyway, just caught up (albeit with a bit of skimming, kind of pressed for time) and I'll think about it.  You may find upcoming hacking stuff cut some of the knots, though.

FWIW, the wiki's edit feature is currently out of commission (at least for some users, including me), so the release notes will probably appear with the release, when I get time for it.

[Draco18s]

Wow, the forum software didn't think I needed to be notified of a 9-page threadsplosion on core mechaincs.

Quick-edit is broken too.

FWIW, the wiki's edit feature is currently out of commission (at least for some users, including me)

Me too:

Sorry! We could not process your edit due to a loss of session data.

[Fluffiest]

You misunderstood. The objective is to set up a system where the guard posts can be balanced in a vacuum, because you can guarantee that it will always be possible to attack them independently. If the guard posts are evenly spaced around the gravity well and don't have overlapping ranges, the situation you describe - a Core Needler and Core Missile post supporting each other - can't happen.

So my suggestion of using the nebula artificial distance multiplier...?

Is an excellent one, which I missed while reading the thread. My apologies.

[Toranth]

As the one who brought up the idea of moving all the guard posts next the home command, I don't want the other half of the change the guard posts require to make this feasible forgotten about.

Moving all the guard posts next the the AI's home command makes the AI HW a strength check, did you play the game up till now correctly? This then turns the AI's home command into a one-off fight that is over in a single attack (or two) that is resolved very quickly.

There would be no drawn out fights that take an hour (or hours) to crack an AI HW, the attack is over quickly either way.

Player wins? Nice work, that AI is dead.
Player loses? Your not strong enough, go get some more K/Fabs/Ships/etc. and come back and try again later.

If you have the Guardposts (Core, at least, possibly Brutal as well) rebuild, then this works.  Otherwise, it just means that if the player attack loses but does some damage, spend an hour or two rebuilding and watching Netflix, then try again.  That's the same issue that people are objecting to with the current state of affairs.

Actually, it occurs to me that this makes the Strategic Reserve more influential than before, because your attack will need to wade through the Reserve to reach the Guardposts. 
This idea also makes AI Home CS positioning in relation to wormholes more significant.
Not bad things, just things to keep in mind.

Remove the Core Fortress
Boost the AI Home-Command station so it has the health and 25% (15%? 35%?) the DPS of the core fortress, but no attack bonuses.
The intent being that this makes the AI Home Command station, which is the final thing you have to destroy, the most dangerous combatant in the system. So, rather then having it rely on other units to defend it, the AI Home Command is now an integral part of it's own defense.

Lèse-majesté!  That's the Fortress King's gimick.  I do not like the AI Home CS being a significant combatant for anyone else.

[LaughingThesaurus]

I actually object to hte idea of the big one-off fight because it's kind of a crap final exam for all the player had learned throughout the game. If you're designing it as a final boss, it should be basically the ultimate test of your strategic abilities and the use of the tools you found throughout the game, not just a strength check. Pure strength checks are for world of warcraft and other games that don't take much thought.

[Draco18s]

Moving all the guard posts next the the AI's home command makes the AI HW a strength check, did you play the game up till now correctly? This then turns the AI's home command into a one-off fight that is over in a single attack (or two) that is resolved very quickly.

Stop taking suggestions out of context.  The suggestion to move everything to the home command station would INCLUDE a rebalance of the guard posts.

[chemical_art]

Moving all the guard posts next the the AI's home command makes the AI HW a strength check, did you play the game up till now correctly? This then turns the AI's home command into a one-off fight that is over in a single attack (or two) that is resolved very quickly.

Stop taking suggestions out of context.  The suggestion to move everything to the home command station would INCLUDE a rebalance of the guard posts.

It doesnt really change anything though for thre better. It increases the fact that the AI HW is a strength check, and that overlaping fields of fire results in nightmares