AI Homeworld Defense

[Toranth]

I'm only joining the thread because somebody mentioned CSGs.

I'm still myself trying to digest the CSG reference. I suggested core worlds could be taken as a method of removing a brutal post in a siege like fashion. CSG's are not a method, they are THE method of allowing them be smashed like any other post.

My comparison was because the CSGs are a method to force people to take certain planets before being allowed to assault the AI Homeworld.
This Anti-Brutal node would be a similar, but weaker, version of the same thing.  If Brutal posts were re-balanced around the assumption that this node would be normally used, then it basically means you MUST use it.  If the balance is for the don't-use-it case then it is generally not needed, and when you DO use it, the AI HWs would be much easier.

[chemical_art]

The idea of course has its costs. Massive AIP and being forced to hold a core world with the high AIP, and then attempting to still slog through the HWs

[LordSloth]

What I found interesting under LT's proposal was the difference between core guards and brutal picks.

Is there a convenient list of brutal picks somewhere? I don't see the "Guard Post" listing on the wiki populating anything, let alone core guard posts.

The Core Guards would all go down if one went down, but the brutal picks would be balanced by the number of spare "Prime" posts you needed to take out. You could take out the brutal pick directly as before, but you'd control the difficulty of the alternate method by the fact of separate stats for a prime post and the number that spawn. For instance, arbitrarily picking something out of my hat, if a Teuthida was chosen for a brutal pick, then you would have the choice of either taking out the guard post on the AI World, or taking out three 'Prime posts' balanced at half the strength.

The concern you paint would be a worrisome factor of a 'one down, all down' core strategy... but for the brutal pick proposal, you'd simply leave the original untouched and balance the alternate independently by stats and number of spawns.

Changing gears

The "Powering them up" strategy has a certain beautiful elegance to it. No new models, no new units requiring their descriptions to be kept up to date, etc.

[Draco18s]

Is there a convenient list of brutal picks somewhere?

No, but I know that these are:

Wrath Lance
Teuthida
Grav Reactor

I'm also pretty sure that's the entire list.

[TechSY730]

The core eyes, the core raid engine, and the core CPA attack posts are also all brutal picks.

[Draco18s]

core CPA attack post

I thought so, but I couldn't find evidence of it.

Tech, can you add a page for Brutal picks and link to it from the main AI behavior page?

[LaughingThesaurus]

Honestly, my idea wouldn't really bind the brutal posts to be the 'primes' necessarily. The secondaries and the primes might well be different every time you play. So, for instance, you might find that Core Laser Guard Posts are your prime posts, and you have to destroy all but one in the core world cluster to really get at the homeworld. The brutal posts might not even be linked in to generating shields at all. They pose more obstacles for you to pick apart the enemy shields so you can go in for the kill. The idea was that you sort of simulate what you already do in the campaign up until then. You find all of the enemy AI weak points, and taking down the weak points gives you more places to explore and exploit. The thing is, you can't really simulate an 80 planet map in the course of 3-5 planets, so instead it sort of simulates the core shield posts. You'd never have to take the planet to kill these posts, but they're linked to each other so poking a hole in one place reveals more holes in other places. You're kind of on your own with the brutal posts, unless they prove so problematic that they have to be nerfed.

[chemical_art]

I'm mentally still trying to understand the idea. Do you mean that most core posts would exist on core worlds on addition to those on the hw and if any die clones of it also die?

[Bognor]

Are we sure the Zenith Trader sells SuperForts to the AI?  They're not on the original list of toys the AI is allowed to buy (which is different from the list of toys the player is allowed to buy), and SuperForts can spawn as a result of AstroTrain activity, and are common in the Fortress Baron AI, and (I presume) have some low probability of spawning at game start for other AIs, as most structures that are associated with a particular AI type always have some low probability of spawning.  Patch 5.043 said the Traders got some new toy but didn't say what it was.

By the way, can't players just kill the Zenith Trader once they're done with it?

Regarding brutal guard posts, two new ones were added in Vengeance of the Machine.  I believe the full list is:

Core Eye (several types)
Core Raid Engine
Core CPA Guard Post
Wrath Lance
Teuthida
Grav Reactor
Core Shredder Drone Guard Post
Core Hunter/Killer Factory Guard Post

[Martyn van Buren]

Hey, how about merging CSGs and some of these proposed mechanics?  As in, I suppose, each CSG network (or perhaps one of several types of network) could represent one brutal pick; for enough AIP, you could just get rid of them all.

[LaughingThesaurus]

That's the basic idea.
So all of the core guard posts are spread around the core worlds and stuff. This is, ideally, with the same basic density you see on the homeworld. So, overall, there are far more guard posts. However, a set of the guard posts will be linked like the prime core shield generators are. Those are your real objectives. You kill all but one of them, and the last one dies. The guard post that is the 'prime' set is determined on worldgen, so you could get Core Laser Posts that are linked like prime shield gens, or Core Missile Posts that are, or so on. The rest of the guard posts are still present, but are all linked to the same type of guard post like the secondary shield gens are. So, if you find one completely unbeatable defense from one angle, you approach from another angle and take down one set of secondary guard posts by killing just one of them. That peels off that layer of guard posts, and makes other angles of approach easier. Once you've softened the planet up enough, you take out the remaining prime posts, and then the homeworld is vulnerable as normal.

As for what to do with brutal posts, I was thinking leave them on the homeworld. I don't know if they actually protect the home command station. They should definitely stay on the homeworld, since splitting up the guard posts like this is done to make sure you always have some kind of viable angle of attack. Perhaps, as a second phase, the brutal post(s) can remain on the homeworld and protect the homeworld until manually destroyed. Then, well, all you have left is home command.

[TechSY730]

The zenith trader is a nuetral to all faction. It also has the invincible flag.

So no, you cannot blow the trader up.

I feel the pretty small chance of the AI buying something is enough to keep them in check.
I do have one idea, but I'm not sure it's worth derailing the thread over.

[KDR_11k]

The zenith trader is a nuetral to all faction. It also has the invincible flag.

So no, you cannot blow the trader up.

I feel the pretty small chance of the AI buying something is enough to keep them in check.
I do have one idea, but I'm not sure it's worth derailing the thread over.

Also it's a game option, if you don't want that then just turn it off. Same result as killing it. Though you'd imagine that a flying store that sells weapons of mass destruction would have adequate defenses against pirates.

[LaughingThesaurus]

It does have adequate defenses: Invulnerability.

[LordSloth]

Of course you can't blow up the Zenith Trader... but that doesn't stop me from dreaming about totally inappropriate and harmful use of nukes to take out:

Dire Guardians (and their lair!)
Zenith Trader
Vengeance Generators
Dyson Sphere
And of course, the Devourer Golem.

if the last two took MK2 Nukes, all the more awesome and irrelevant.

Sadly I haven't had the excuse to nuke anything lately.

Nuking the Dire Guardians is the only remotely reasonable suggestion I'm making. I have a game with three Lairs in a nice tight triangle of systems. Unlike MKV ships or superforts or core shields, taking them out this way won't hinder the AI's ultimate HW defense at all, quite the opposite. It seems like an actual tradeoff rather than something to rush in just before the end. And can actually start looking like a desirable tradeoff during that Fallen Spire Campaign, though I'm sure it's only the fear speaking.... That and the six dead facilities.

So... tangent.