AI Homeworld Defense

[Draco18s]

Imagine this: AI homeworld size is increased. Wrath Lance spawns on the other side of the Homeworld.

How is this any different than it is currently?

The Lance has a maximum range of 83,000, which would also get cut down due to the increased size (what is it, half move, half range for nebulas?).

[Martyn van Buren]

I rather like Chemart's distinction between tactical and strategic challenge, and I think I basically agree that making Homeworlds a challenge that you have to do a lot of micro to overcome is a weird shift from the rest of the game, which is more about figuring out where you need to put what ships than figuring out what to do with them once they're there.  That said, I can see why this is hard to make into a boss fight --- if the answer is just "all of them, in a big group"; it's going to feel awfully same-y from game to game.

(By the way, I do tend to get tired of games once they get to the slog bit, and I have to admit I haven't actually made it to a homeworld since before Ancient Shadows --- I hope you'll forgive me if my ideas are wildly out of date).

But (@Chemart) I think the the idea of breaking the homeworlds into micro-battlefields could work.  The point, if I understand it right, is to break up the homeworld into a few parts such that you can focus on one and mostly ignore the others, which is very much like approaching a few different planets.

I wonder if you could do the same thing more simply by moving some of the homeworld guard posts onto the core worlds, creating more of a multi-stage boss fight?  To make it clear, you would still have to kill them all before you could attack the homeworld.  So you wouldn't get the cluster[mess] effect of having ten homeworld guard posts overlapping ranges with each other and the brutals, but you would have the additional challenge of having to deal with them at the same time as the fairly nasty core worlds, with maybe one brutal pick apiece.  If you got a core eye or wraith lance, at the most you would have to deal with it for a third of your overall fight, leading to more of a variety of tactics within the fight.

The other thing that occurs to me, is that as I understand it, what strategic challenge is is mostly about managing your resources --- that is, the Napoloen issue of facing pressures from a lot of directions, and trying to deal with most of them efficiently enough that you can still focus overwhelming force on your point of attack.  So to get that kind of challenge, the problem isn't about calibrating the homeworld itself, so much as giving you reasons to want a fleet somewhere else when you're trying to attack the homeworld.

Do the Core Raid and Core CPA Engines do this well?  Is there room for more of that kind of thing, combined with a weaker homeworld?

[LaughingThesaurus]

I actually love the idea of core worlds being a part of the homeworld assault. Throwing my support at that. It's a simple solution, it helps eliminate the issue of 'hey, all of these hard counter defenses are piled in the same group'. To enhance strategy a wee bit, you might have each major defense have a minor effect on all of the other worlds in the little homeworld cluster. That way, you find the best angle of attack, the best ships for the job, and you eliminate things in an order that makes everything else easier to deal with.

Increasing the homeworld's size seems a bit nonsensical if we did go with that solution. You could proportionately decrease the range of everything instead, with some kind of special structure. That way, your firing ranges don't overlap, the posts get spread apart, and we don't have any problems with wrath lances on the opposite edge of the homeworld or anything like that.

[TechSY730]

Yea, moving some of the core guard posts to the core worlds is a great idea. Helps reduce how much "stuff" stacks on the homeworlds.

Yea, the brutal picks would still really "cramp" a lot of "styles" on the homeworld proper, but at least now that there is less stuff at that planet, you have a better chance of being able to take those brutal picks out in a more reasonable timespan with a more reasonable amount of effort, thus minimizing the grind some. (Still think some of the brutal picks could use some refactoring to make their "global gimmicks" a little less severe)

[Toranth]

I actually love the idea of core worlds being a part of the homeworld assault. Throwing my support at that. It's a simple solution, it helps eliminate the issue of 'hey, all of these hard counter defenses are piled in the same group'.

Unfortunately, now you're running into major issues with map types and HW placement.  How many Core Guardposts would an AI HW with 16 core worlds have?  What about an AI HW with only 1 core world?  While 16 is uncommon (seen it once), 8+ is not uncommon on some maptypes, and just 1 is very common on many maptypes.

I don't disagree with the idea - I might suggest changing it to be optional rather than required: A structure on Core World #1 gives +100% attack to the HW, a different Core world has a Radar Jammer II effect, etc.  That leaves it optional if the player wants to brute-force it, but still an possibility for more subtle play for other players.


All in all, though, I personally don't think there's a real problem with the Homeworld assaults.  Yes, more options would be nice, but I think it should be way down there on the list of things to improve.

[LaughingThesaurus]

The 1 core world would then have about half the guard posts, and the homeworld would have the other half. That's what I assumed, at least.

[Draco18s]

Increasing the homeworld's size seems a bit nonsensical if we did go with that solution. You could proportionately decrease the range of everything instead, with some kind of special structure. That way, your firing ranges don't overlap, the posts get spread apart, and we don't have any problems with wrath lances on the opposite edge of the homeworld or anything like that.

Hence why I referred to the nebula effect and saying "artificially increase the homeworld size."

The rules/mechanics for it are already there, we just need to apply them to the homeworlds.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Oh, okay. I didn't know that was what you meant.

[Fluffiest]

1) Pick number of Core posts based on difficulty level and AI type.

2) Pick number of Brutal posts based on difficulty level and AI type.

3) Place one Brutal post on the homeworld. If one of your Brutal picks was an Eye, it should be that one.

4) Place one Brutal post on each core world.

5) Repeat steps 3 and 4 until all the Brutal posts have been placed.

6) Place half (or one third, or a fixed number; I don't know what would be best) the non-Brutal Core posts on the homeworld.

7) Place one non-Brutal Core post on each Core world, starting with those that don't already have a Brutal post, until you run out of Core posts.

If you finish step 7 before running out of Core posts, do it again.

9) If the homeworld or any of the core worlds don't have enough guard posts, fill the remaining slots with Mk IVs.

[Draco18s]

Oh, okay. I didn't know that was what you meant.

*Cough*

I wonder if homeworlds need to be hit with the same effect that makes the nebula locations do their thing...that would prevent overlapping fields of fire from guard posts and producing the "microcosm" effect people desire.

[Histidine]

Does the Core Guard Post distribution idea mean having to go to each core world to destroy any Core GPs it might have before I can damage or destroy the AI Home Command Station? I'd rather not do that if given the choice.

[Martyn van Buren]

That was my thought, yes, but Toranth made the good point that depending on map-type you can have a really large number of Core worlds, which would certainly be unfun. That said, I think it would be fairly simple to force a standard number of core worlds onto any map type.

[Gudamor]

Wouldn't it be easier to force a maximum number of Core Guard Posts than a maximum number of Core Worlds, for this proposal?

[chemical_art]

Is it necessary for the core posts not on the HW give immunity? Perhaps they could instead just be meancing guard posts.

It is true they could then be ignored, but they would cause the core worlds to reinforce more heavily.

[chemical_art]

Pressed for time, will elaborate later.

Idea:

For every brutal pick, a node controlling it is found on a nearby core world is found. On planet capture, this node transfer to player. Results in immediate increase of massive aip. If held for long period of time, eventually brutal post destroyed.