AI Homeworld Defense

[Toranth]

Each AI HW now gets a 'Guard Ring' just outside the core force field over the AI Home Command station (so the Guard Ring is not protected by the forcefield).

The new Guard Post Modules now slot into the Guard Ring as appropriate, with the Guard Ring have more module slots as the difficulty goes up.

Suddenly, I'm reminded of the battle against the Sa-Matra in Star Control 2.

I don't dislike your idea as one possible AI HW setup.  But, if you remember, one of the poll items for new Core Guardposts was the Tesseract Force Field - a puzzle item for defending the AI HW.  It did pretty poorly in the polls.  So did the Flux/Microcosm Shield GP, which was another tactical variety-type guardpost.

I think it's unfortunate, but most people don't seem to want a whole lot of variety on the Homeworlds.

So, what would be good value for the "HW reserved" strategic reserves. 40%?
Actually, what is the current system for how the AI is willing to use strategic reserve on non homeworlds?

The current system is that the AI will deploy 5% (10%?) to the SuperTerminal system, 30% to any core world, and that's it.
A Reservist AI will additionally deploy 10% to any system with a "defendable": a Fab, Factory, or ASC.

I don't really think there should BE a reserved amount for the Homeworld.  I think that if you can use other systems to completely destroy the Strategic Reserve, that's awesome!  However, there should be a priority - if the HW wants ships, it gets first pick.  Any leftover can go to other systems.  Since the Reserve is contantly regenerating, this would mean that at least SOME Reserve ships would show up to help defend the AI HW.
Maybe also add a recall feature - if the Reserve is deployed (but still alive) elsewhere when the HW comes under attack, it'll be recalled and redeployed to the HW.  That way you need to at least KILL the reserve to be rid of it.

[Diazo]

Each AI HW now gets a 'Guard Ring' just outside the core force field over the AI Home Command station (so the Guard Ring is not protected by the forcefield).

The new Guard Post Modules now slot into the Guard Ring as appropriate, with the Guard Ring have more module slots as the difficulty goes up.

Suddenly, I'm reminded of the battle against the Sa-Matra in Star Control 2.

I don't dislike your idea as one possible AI HW setup.  But, if you remember, one of the poll items for new Core Guardposts was the Tesseract Force Field - a puzzle item for defending the AI HW.  It did pretty poorly in the polls.  So did the Flux/Microcosm Shield GP, which was another tactical variety-type guardpost.

I think it's unfortunate, but most people don't seem to want a whole lot of variety on the Homeworlds.

Erm, I was not thinking of any sort of puzzle, just moving all the guard posts next to the AI Home Command.

My reasoning was that right now guard posts usually spawn off by themselves so they get balanced that way. Because of this, when they spawn close enough together that they overlap, they turn into this giant wall-o-doom that is much harder then it is supposed to be.

An AI HW with a Core Laser post (I think that's the polycrystal bonus?) has a massive difficulty range depending on if the Core Laser post is on the other side of the system as opposed to if it spawns close enough that the Core Fortress that their fields of fire overlap.

By forcing the Core Guard posts to spawn close enough that their fields of fire will always overlap, they can be balanced for that thus removing the "poor RNG" placement that can turn the current guard posts into impossible challenges when they spawn in the wrong spots as opposed to being relatively easy if the RNG likes the player with exactly the same guard posts being chosen to spawn.

D.

[TechSY730]

Just so it doesn't seem like we are ragging on ya too much Keith, the game up until the AI HW assault is in an awesome place. And even with the current AI homeworlds, under many possible arrangements the RNG tends to make, the AI homeworlds can indeed be a fun, epic fight.
It's just that the current system is a bit too "volatile". Just a bit of a "bad roll" (in same cases, as little as 2 or 3 "bad rolls") for placement, and the interesting challenge can degenerate into a fustrating grindfest. I guess we are looking for systems and/or balance changes that will make this possibility of "really bad case" AI HW genration far less likely, and less likely to be "unfun" if it does happen.

[Toranth]

By forcing the Core Guard posts to spawn close enough that their fields of fire will always overlap, they can be balanced for that thus removing the "poor RNG" placement that can turn the current guard posts into impossible challenges when they spawn in the wrong spots as opposed to being relatively easy if the RNG likes the player with exactly the same guard posts being chosen to spawn.

Well, that would make it easier to balance... but all your Homeworlds would then look like Bunkerer subcommand planets.
On top of that, one of the harder issues with a HW assault is that each Core Guardpost needs to be killed before the Home Command Station can be killed.  When the Core Guardposts are scattered throughout the system, some close to wormholes or the Home CS, others way across the system away from everything, it makes requires either multiple attacks or better handling of your forces.
If all the Core Guardposts are close together, right next to the Home CS, it'd suddenly become much easier to kill everything (e.g. warheads HO!).

The other end of the spectrum, the Paranoid subcommander layout, might work better for what you want.  Each guardpost is spaced equally around the outside edge of the system, so there's little to no overlap between guardposts.

[Diazo]

Well, that would make it easier to balance... but all your Homeworlds would then look like Bunkerer subcommand planets.
On top of that, one of the harder issues with a HW assault is that each Core Guardpost needs to be killed before the Home Command Station can be killed.  When the Core Guardposts are scattered throughout the system, some close to wormholes or the Home CS, others way across the system away from everything, it makes requires either multiple attacks or better handling of your forces.
If all the Core Guardposts are close together, right next to the Home CS, it'd suddenly become much easier to kill everything (e.g. warheads HO!).

The other end of the spectrum, the Paranoid subcommander layout, might work better for what you want.  Each guardpost is spaced equally around the outside edge of the system, so there's little to no overlap between guardposts.

Clustering everything together so the AI HW attack is over fast was the point.

What I find makes AI War fun is managing the balance of increasing your fleet's power vs. the AIP it costs.

There is not any of that on the AI HWs, the AI HW's are essential a strength check, is your fleet strong enough to kill the AI?

Why not change it so it is over quicker? And in such a way that AI HW difficulty is more consistent.

This suggestion does kind of nerf the AI HW's attack in terms of complexity, but looking at the entire game, all the HW attack is is a strength check, so let's make that strength check as straightforward as possible.

D.

[Draco18s]

Each AI HW now gets a 'Guard Ring' just outside the core force field over the AI Home Command station (so the Guard Ring is not protected by the forcefield).

The new Guard Post Modules now slot into the Guard Ring as appropriate, with the Guard Ring have more module slots as the difficulty goes up.

Suddenly, I'm reminded of the battle against the Sa-Matra in Star Control 2.

I don't dislike your idea as one possible AI HW setup.  But, if you remember, one of the poll items for new Core Guardposts was the Tesseract Force Field - a puzzle item for defending the AI HW.  It did pretty poorly in the polls.  So did the Flux/Microcosm Shield GP, which was another tactical variety-type guardpost.

Ok, the reason the tesseract failed is because it wasn't a Homeworld thing.  It was the bad half of the Spire Shard quests (locate mcguffins in order) combined with the bad half of the core shield generators (all must be destroyed or the homeworld is immune to damage).  Or at least, that's my take.  It's why *I* don't like the idea.

The Flux/Microcosm Shield GP failed because you can't retreat.  If it wasn't for that one detail it would be brilliant.

In any case, the goal is for the Homeworlds to be over quickly.  No "throw my fleet at it and spend 2 hours refleeting, repeat 12 times."  I'm at the homeworld assault point in my current game right now and I'm actually quite frustrated, because so many tactics are outright locked down.  One AI homeworld has a superfort on it, but it's so far away from the nearest wormhole (to me) that I can't even suicide-bomb it with transports full of bombers.

I wonder if homeworlds need to be hit with the same effect that makes the nebula locations do their thing...that would prevent overlapping fields of fire from guard posts and producing the "microcosm" effect people desire.

[chemical_art]

I wonder if homeworlds need to be hit with the same effect that makes the nebula locations do their thing...that would prevent overlapping fields of fire from guard posts and producing the "microcosm" effect people desire.

I, for one, don't desire this.


And the recent poll on revamping champions tangentially proves others don't want it either.

[orzelek]

I wonder if homeworlds need to be hit with the same effect that makes the nebula locations do their thing...that would prevent overlapping fields of fire from guard posts and producing the "microcosm" effect people desire.

I, for one, don't desire this.


And the recent poll on revamping champions tangentially proves others don't want it either.

I don't think that champions revamp means this.

I for one would like to see either planet areas a bit larger or reduction of attack ranges all around. It would give you ability to use a bit more tactics when approaching planets. Currently you might attack one guard post but a lot of stuff around also comes due to various factors.

[Draco18s]

I wonder if homeworlds need to be hit with the same effect that makes the nebula locations do their thing...that would prevent overlapping fields of fire from guard posts and producing the "microcosm" effect people desire.

I, for one, don't desire this.

Care to explain why?

[chemical_art]

I, for one, don't desire this.

Care to explain why?
[/quote] 

A similar reason to why I dont play starcraft and have stopped playing MOBA games.

I play strategy games for big picture planning. Where battles are won or lost before combat often occurs.
I consider "micro" to be tactics, which is something.else entirely. Sonething I dont care at all for. However, I tolerate a little micro.if it serves a great strategic value.

But micro for micro sake?

No.

[LintMan]

Let's start with the passive strategies disabled with AI Homeworlds:

Cloaking in any way
EMP or nukes in any way
Raiding in any way
Reclamation in any way
Several super weapons, including artillery, hive, and botnet (above) golems

Here are some defensive structures virtually guranteed to be on the AI HW:
An Ion cannon that wears down any fleetships not immune to insta-kill, starting with the strongest one
An OMD that wears down annihilates any star ships or larger.

Then we have brutal picks. These are the some of the tactics elminated via the structures taking in account the above passive bonuses:

Anything that doesn't teleport (core wraith lance)
Anything that can be reclaimed (teuthida)
Empires not based on a chokepoint (core raid, core CPA)

And these are tactics brutally removed, if not outright eliminated:

High health targets (Implosion core post)
Zerg tactics (core shredders, AI eyes)
Units with low engine damage (Grav reactor)

I think chemical_art has highlighted the central problem here.    So many strategies are outright blocked on the homeworlds (cloaking, hive golems, emps, etc) and others drastically countered, that the player is left with few options beyond blunt, grinding force.

Personally, what I'd like for the homeworlds is for me to need to "pull out all the stops" and use every advantage I have to take out the homeworld.  When so many of those options are nerfed or outright blocked, that feels like a letdown... I worked hard to build up those advantages and now when they would be most critical, they are nerfed or useless.

I understand though, that many of these homeworld blocks and nerfs are to prevent some cheese tactic or another from monopolizing the end game, but perhaps there is a middle ground of "usefulness sans cheese" that we can reach?  Ie: Maybe Hive wasps can be used, but only have limited effectiveness, even if released in massive quantities (ie: 2-3 golems' worth) - but maybe at the same time, they might soak up a lot of the AI counter-fire, giving your fleet ships more time to survive as part of a coordinated attack.  Similarly for cloaking - a smarter AI mobile detection response instead of blanket tachyon coverage might allow cloaking to be useful while preventing the cheese.

And so on for the other hard blocks ... replace them with softer counters designed to prevent the chees while still allowing usefulness.

[Draco18s]

I play strategy games for big picture planning. Where battles are won or lost before combat often occurs.
I consider "micro" to be tactics, which is something.else entirely. Sonething I dont care at all for. However, I tolerate a little micro.if it serves a great strategic value.

But micro for micro sake?

No.

I don't understand.  How is the microcosm battlefield micro for micro's sake?

[chemical_art]

I play strategy games for big picture planning. Where battles are won or lost before combat often occurs.
I consider "micro" to be tactics, which is something.else entirely. Sonething I dont care at all for. However, I tolerate a little micro.if it serves a great strategic value.

But micro for micro sake?

No.

I don't understand.  How is the microcosm battlefield micro for micro's sake?

More clearly, sometimes a little micro is done to achieve a great strategic benefit.  However, sometimes a lot of micro acheives only a little benefit.


The former I am OK with, the latter I am not.


What  the above that is mostly opinion. However, for example, nebula scenarios are an example of a lot of micro for minor strategic benefit. Or having to try (unsuccessfully) to go around core wraith posts a poor use of micro.

[Draco18s]

What  the above that is mostly opinion. However, for example, nebula scenarios are an example of a lot of micro for minor strategic benefit. Or having to try (unsuccessfully) to go around core wraith posts a poor use of micro.

So an artificial increase in the size of the AI homeworlds such that two guard posts having overlapping ranges of fire is almost nonexistent results in excessive use of micro?

I'm confused.

[Arc-3N-4B]

What  the above that is mostly opinion. However, for example, nebula scenarios are an example of a lot of micro for minor strategic benefit. Or having to try (unsuccessfully) to go around core wraith posts a poor use of micro.

So an artificial increase in the size of the AI homeworlds such that two guard posts having overlapping ranges of fire is almost nonexistent results in excessive use of micro?

I'm confused.

Imagine this: AI homeworld size is increased. Wrath Lance spawns on the other side of the Homeworld.