Author Topic: AI Homeworld Defense  (Read 35006 times)

Offline chemical_art

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AI Homeworld Defense
« on: July 11, 2013, 12:25:05 pm »
It's going to take forever to write this up, so I'll do the premise first and fill in the blanks later.


The AI Homeworlds both passively, and through their brutal picks can frequently create defensive situations where there is no winning solution, and the "less bad" solutions inevitably involving varying degrees of cheese.

The gulf between "fighting AI Homeworld" and "not fighting on AI Homeworld" has already been larger, but it has grown far larger over time.

Let's start with the passive strategies disabled with AI Homeworlds:

Cloaking in any way
EMP or nukes in any way
Raiding in any way
Reclamation in any way
Several super weapons, including artillery, hive, and botnet (above) golems

Here are some defensive structures virtually guranteed to be on the AI HW:
An Ion cannon that wears down any fleetships not immune to insta-kill, starting with the strongest one
An OMD that wears down annihilates any star ships or larger.

Then we have brutal picks. These are the some of the tactics elminated via the structures taking in account the above passive bonuses:

Anything that doesn't teleport (core wraith lance)
Anything that can be reclaimed (teuthida)
Empires not based on a chokepoint (core raid, core CPA)

And these are tactics brutally removed, if not outright eliminated:

High health targets (Implosion core post)
Zerg tactics (core shredders, AI eyes)
Units with low engine damage (Grav reactor)


Then we get into the new guardians. Haven't even got to the point of examining them. However their stats and tactics while not global, and not as brutal individually, but as a whole (there are several of them) adds another layer of a dozen tactics that are almost locked down.

Then we have the strategic reserve. While not elegant in locking down specific tactics, it does manage to require the "floor" of any tactic's strength to increase dramatically.



So...for now I see:

Passive global defenses that lock down  several tactics
Specific global defenses that lock down several tactics
Specific global defenses that maul several tactics
Specific  (unit defenses) that as a whole maul many tactics
Broad global defenses that makes all tactics require a very high standard to overcome




I think enough is enough.


This isn't fun.


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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 12:34:42 pm »
Not agreeing or disagreeing, but I thought I would quote some relevant posts from another thread.

Could the brutal picks stand to be made a bit less "hyper specialized"? Probably.

This which would actually make the brutal picks a bit more effective individually, but the less specialized they are, the more the "boost" of "effective utility" by having multiple kinds will be polynomial rather than exponential. So each individual one may be more threatening, but as a whole, a group of less specialized ones would actually be less threatening than a group of highly specialized ones.

But I don't think the idea of how the AI HW defenses work is flawed. Just some of the stats need tweaking.

That said, there is only like 1 or 2 brutal picks on difficulty 7, so it isn't all that bad even if you get a pair of picks that complement each other well. It's only at around 8 or up where you get enough brutal picks start being able to shutdown everything.

I will point out once again that humans "ultra stack" defenses all the time, so it only makes sense the AI does so as well. They just got a "head start" on it because, well, they won the war. ;)


I still feel like fortresses need a similar treatment to be less "send polycrystal units in to slowly grind it to death"-ish, but that is another discussion.

(Hint for the fortresses + superfort + forcefields, transports filled with polycrystal units. The transports will let those polycrystal units get close enough to at least get some shots off on the forcefields)

I brute-force brutal posts all the time. There's no secret sauce to it-- just select everything with a bonus against that hulltype --> send though wormhole --> right-click --> baddie explodes --> send back through wormhole.

If the post is far from the wormhole, you put them in transports and treat it as a suicide mission.

(Which is a fundamental problem with AI War, yes. No matter how many hard counters are added, you beat all of them with the same skill-free cliches.)

(How many of you are familiar with a roguelike called ADOM? Way back when it was in active development, it got stuck in a loop of players saying 'the endgame monsters are too easy!', and the developer doubling the hp and damage of the endgame monsters, and the players saying 'they're still too easy!'

Eventually it came out that everybody was killing the monsters by kiting them around and shooting them with ranged attacks, and that the monster's attack power never mattered because they never got to attack, and increasing their hp only made the kiting phase longer and duller.

AI War development feels a lot like that right now.)

Oh yea, I forgot about the AI command station gets planetary tachyon beams thing.

While I don't think it is unfair anymore given that we can now get such a thing for our homeworld (the Mk. III military foldout), I think something important was forgotten. The effect of planetary tachyon beams is as severe as a brutal pick. (remember, planetary tachyon coverage used to be on the core AI eyes) As such, when this change went in, effectively all difficulties got a "free" "brutal pick". So this means that instead of 1 to 2 brutal picks for difficulty 7, this bumped it up to an effective 2 to 3, which is indeed too rough for difficulty 7.

I'd vote for keeping the planetary tachyon beams on AI homeworlds, but in return, have an across the board reduction of (true) brutal picks by one, for all difficulties (thus, difficulty 7 would only get 0 or 1). This would bring the intended difficulty level of AI homeworlds back to their intended levels. And yes, that means that up to difficulty 7, sometimes (always for the very low difficulty levels) the AI will get no true brutal picks, which is fine. The Mk. V units and core guard posts should be enough of a challenge for those who don't want "meant for ultra-hyper, serious, mega skilled players" levels of crazy stuff flying around (or "not flying around" if there is a gravity based brutal pick ;)). The brutal picks would still show up sometimes, giving a nice bit of variety every now and then, but not stack to crazy levels.

Starting at difficulty 8, the AI would start being assured to always get at least one, even with this nerf, which at that point is fine. At that point, the user has explicitly gone above the "normal difficulty" point and is asking for an above-average challenge.

Still wouldn't solve the quagmire if it happens on a core world, yet alone a AI HW world.

[Being end game in of itself doesn't enable a magic wand that gives the player new tactical options between mid and late game]

True, but all of the stuff you have availible to you through (potential) unlocks and capturables you encountered/did along the way to get to the late game sure does open up new tactical options.

Not saying that "over seeding if global effects to grind levels" wouldn't be a possible issue (in fact, it already is currently), but I am saying that unless you were not going for what is availible to you through the course of the game, one would have more tactical options than is availible in the early-mid game.

I'm going to disagree. Tactically, my options don't change much from mid to late game. The strength of those options increase, but the tactics don't change.

Meaning between mid to late game, if I manage to acquire a new golem or ARS, odds are it already fits into existing tactical options. And if it manages to do open new tactical options, it lacks enough strength to help with the AI HW attack.

A key problem with AI HW defense its defenses are at a strength to knock down an "all out" specialization of a tactic, and the result if a new option is found in the late game, it is impossible to use that option where it matters because the AI is prepared as if you had that option (and specialized in it) from early game.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 12:41:54 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 12:40:17 pm »
Now, for my stance.

Aside from the posts I have quoted above that were originally from me (especially about the planetary tachyon coverage being an effective "free brutal pick"), I will say that I like the system of AI homeworld defenses is fine, but the stats (number of brutal picks, stats of brutal picks, stats of core guard posts, regen rates and max size of strategic reserve, etc) could use some tweaking (like my proposal to make them less "hyper specialized")

Offline Tridus

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 01:32:14 pm »
I don't know what to do about it, but I agree with what I think is your central theme: Homeworld assaults shut down a lot of tactics and mechanics that are in the rest of the game, and that doesn't contribute to fun.

My favorite moments in the game are in systems where there's complexity in how to solve it, or when things go wrong and I need to deal with it. Stuff where I can try to solve it with ships, or transports, or cloakers, or resort to warheads in desperation. The tactical diversity on the homeworld is lessened significantly.

I don't have a good answer for solutions, but the HW is more of that thing I have to do at the end than the high point of the game for me. My high points are almost always in the middle.

(I guess one extra upside to Fallen Spire is that the homeworlds haven't got a hard counter to a Spire Fleet.)

edit - I guess it's also worth mentioning that this is a fairly common problem to strategy games, and AI War is nowhere near the worst offender. Something like Civilization has a lot of cases where I've won the game 50 turns before I can actually win it. The outcome is inevitable and I'm just going through the motions to get there. There's honestly no point in finishing those games except for achievements, because the interesting part is over long before the end.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 01:35:46 pm by Tridus »

Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 01:34:55 pm »
Now, for my stance.

Aside from the posts I have quoted above that were originally from me (especially about the planetary tachyon coverage being an effective "free brutal pick"), I will say that I like the system of AI homeworld defenses is fine, but the stats (number of brutal picks, stats of brutal picks, stats of core guard posts, regen rates and max size of strategic reserve, etc) could use some tweaking (like my proposal to make them less "hyper specialized")

Could you please elaborate on being less specialized? Curious on your thoughts on this.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 01:38:15 pm »
My favorite moments in the game are in systems where there's complexity in how to solve it, or when things go wrong and I need to deal with it. Stuff where I can try to solve it with ships, or transports, or cloakers, or resort to warheads in desperation. The tactical diversity on the homeworld is lessened significantly.

I agree with this.

I think part of the problem is that it is too easy to have defenses that cover each other's weakness. For example the core wraith's only real weakness I find aside from teleporting (which requires positive RNG on the player and isn't pretty at all in practice to defeat a wraith post) is to use cloaking. However, planetary cloaking covers this weakness. So in effect, the core wraith has no real weakness, and one shots everything it touches with a very wide swath.  That alone is bad enough, but then you got the other dozen or so things I mentioned also stopping you.



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Offline Diazo

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2013, 02:11:36 pm »
Okay.

Let's back off a bit here before we get talking about individual units.

What is the AI HW assault supposed to be?

For me, everything before the HW assault is more low key, sneaking around, picking up ARS, grabbing your strategic systems and building up your fleet.

Then you hit the AI HWs and low-key goes out the window. You've build your fleet up to something quite substantial and you are now going after the AI with everything you've got.

The AI is then throwing everything its got back at you and if you've done the early-mid game right your fleet is built up enough that you can get that killing blow in on the AI.

That's why I'm not sure the AI HW's are out of line at the moment. Other systems are supposed to be interesting to capture but not require your whole fleet. However, the AI HW's are the end game. You need to bring your entire fleet to the table at once to crack it.

That's how I see it anyway, the AI HWs are supposed to be a giant leap in difficulty because they are intended to require your entire fleet to conquer and not be something that can be tackled at the same time as you are doing other stuff, this is the end-game after all.

Now, where AI HW's currently stand I don't know, I think it's something like patch 6.030 since I attacked an AI HW but I'm intending to finish my current game so hopefully I'll be able to comment soon.

One thought I did have however is to take advantage of the strategic reserve. Tone down the attack power of the defensive structures in return for buffing their health. This both prevents the players fleet from dying as fast and it keeps the difficulty up because it makes destroying structures take longer which gives the strategic reserve longer to get to the players fleet and join the fight.

D.

Offline Histidine

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2013, 02:50:21 pm »
Aside from all the brutal posts and their ability to wtfomg your entire fleet from across the planet in ten seconds flat, the strategic reserve is honestly the biggest offender here. There's no way to get around homeworlds being a slow, painful slugging match when anything you send has to deal with a constant stream of Mk V ships.

A gentle remedy might be to limit the speed at which the AI can mobilize the strategic reserve. Say it can bulk deploy 15% of its reserve at one go, then has to wait 5 minutes for the next spawn. Your fleet dukes it out with the reserve force and destroys it in a two-minute battle. You now have three minutes to do things before the next wave arrives.

EDIT:
Okay.

Let's back off a bit here before we get talking about individual units.

What is the AI HW assault supposed to be?

For me, everything before the HW assault is more low key, sneaking around, picking up ARS, grabbing your strategic systems and building up your fleet.

Then you hit the AI HWs and low-key goes out the window. You've build your fleet up to something quite substantial and you are now going after the AI with everything you've got.

The AI is then throwing everything its got back at you and if you've done the early-mid game right your fleet is built up enough that you can get that killing blow in on the AI.

That's why I'm not sure the AI HW's are out of line at the moment. Other systems are supposed to be interesting to capture but not require your whole fleet. However, the AI HW's are the end game. You need to bring your entire fleet to the table at once to crack it.

That's how I see it anyway, the AI HWs are supposed to be a giant leap in difficulty because they are intended to require your entire fleet to conquer and not be something that can be tackled at the same time as you are doing other stuff, this is the end-game after all.
The thing with the homeworld being functionally the "final boss" is certainly true - and highlights the problem.
Speaking for myself, my issue with the AI homeworld is twofold:
  • There's very little tactics involved. Between the strategic reserve and the brutal posts, any force you send will be maimed regardless of what you do; your only real option is to send everything you have in a solid blob and hope it lasts long enough to get the job done.
  • Rather than being a do-or-die mission as you might expect, the battle is surprisingly grindy and thus anticlimatic. It's quite often that I'll kill a few guard posts, get my fleet wiped, then netflix for the next four hours while refleeting so I can have another go at it. Very un-final battle like.

My proposed fix for #2 works this way:
  • When enough player strength is on the homeworld, the AI Home Command Station starts a countdown (say 60 seconds). For the benefit of the newbies, the game might autosave here.
  • When this countdown finishes, the AI starts a second countdown, maybe 1 hour on 7/7. When this countdown ends, the AI launches a CPA/exo of epic proportions, oppa Showdown style.
  • Killing the AI Home Command Station cancels the CPA/exo. In other words, you have 1 hour once the homeworld battle starts to finish the job, or the game is over.
(obviously homeworld defenses will need rebalancing accordingly)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 03:14:10 pm by Histidine »

Offline Toranth

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 03:33:58 pm »
Aside from all the brutal posts and their ability to wtfomg your entire fleet from across the planet in ten seconds flat, the strategic reserve is honestly the biggest offender here. There's no way to get around homeworlds being a slow, painful slugging match when anything you send has to deal with a constant stream of Mk V ships.

A gentle remedy might be to limit the speed at which the AI can mobilize the strategic reserve. Say it can bulk deploy 15% of its reserve at one go, then has to wait 5 minutes for the next spawn. Your fleet dukes it out with the reserve force and destroys it in a two-minute battle. You now have three minutes to do things before the next wave arrives.
This is an interesting idea.  The reserve is the real 'nasty' of HW defense, even more than the Brutal Guardposts, which at least STAY gone when killed.  My preferred strategy is to repeatedly trigger a Core CPA until the reserves are empty, then nuke the huge threatball and proceed directly to the HWs.  When there's no Core CPA post, it turns into a major slugfest and multiple suicide runs of my whole fleet, each followed by an hour or two rebuilding.

An alternate idea would be to allow the other systems (ST, Core, etc) to drop the Strategic Reserve down to a lower percentage.  Right now, you're always guaranteed to have 70% available for the HW, unless drained by CPAs.  If you could fight the ships repeatedly somewhere else and whittle down the reserve to, say, 10% - that'd be an alternate strategy to brute-forcing the horde.


My proposed fix for #2 works this way:
  • When enough player strength is on the homeworld, the AI Home Command Station starts a countdown (say 60 seconds). For the benefit of the newbies, the game might autosave here.
  • When this countdown finishes, the AI starts a second countdown, maybe 1 hour on 7/7. When this countdown ends, the AI launches a CPA/exo of epic proportions, oppa Showdown style.
  • Killing the AI Home Command Station cancels the CPA/exo. In other words, you have 1 hour once the homeworld battle starts to finish the job, or the game is over.
(obviously homeworld defenses will need rebalancing accordingly)
I don't like this, because as I said above, I regularly will suicide my entire 2000+ ship fleet on a HW to kill a few Guardposts.  Those first few Brutal kills, especially, cost almost everything I've got.  Rebuilding from that takes a lot more than an hour, so this counter-Exo would doom me if strong enough.  If not strong enough, I'll ignore it and it'll have served no purpose at all.

Offline Cinth

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 04:02:40 pm »
If I recall correctly, you can drain 10% of the reserves off on a ST planet and up to 45% on the core worlds.  The lowest you can have before hitting a HW is 55%.  Those would be the significant ones (I think there are more targets the reserves are used for, just can't remember right off).

Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2013, 04:11:29 pm »
While 15% of max capcity max deployment per "pulse", with pulses being 5 minutes apart, seems a tad slow, this sort of idea would help prevent worst case grindiness with the strategic reserve. (The max deployment per pulse and/or the time between each pulse should probably vary with difficulty)

Also, lowering the "reserved for homeworld" percentage from 70% to something like 40% would help open up more possibilities for players to deal with and and help "smoothen" the difficulty curve compared to other times the strategic reserve is encountered.

For the brutal pick "un-hyperspecialization", for those brutal picks have severely strong DPS or potential kills per second gimmicks, I was thinking of nerfing the gimmick and buffing the "normal ways" that it can be tough/threatening.
Also, for pretty much all of the brutal picks though with high specific ship hull type multipliers, reduce those multipliers some, but increase base damage a bit. In fact, I think this needs to be done for all of the core guard posts. Furthermore, I think it should be done for all guard posts of all marks. (Actually, I think it should be at least considered across the whole game, but that is a somewhat seperate issue)

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2013, 05:21:42 pm »
My proposed fix for #2 works this way:
  • When enough player strength is on the homeworld, the AI Home Command Station starts a countdown (say 60 seconds). For the benefit of the newbies, the game might autosave here.
  • When this countdown finishes, the AI starts a second countdown, maybe 1 hour on 7/7. When this countdown ends, the AI launches a CPA/exo of epic proportions, oppa Showdown style.
  • Killing the AI Home Command Station cancels the CPA/exo. In other words, you have 1 hour once the homeworld battle starts to finish the job, or the game is over.
(obviously homeworld defenses will need rebalancing accordingly)
I don't like this, because as I said above, I regularly will suicide my entire 2000+ ship fleet on a HW to kill a few Guardposts.  Those first few Brutal kills, especially, cost almost everything I've got.  Rebuilding from that takes a lot more than an hour, so this counter-Exo would doom me if strong enough.  If not strong enough, I'll ignore it and it'll have served no purpose at all.

I think you may have missed the part where he said HW defenses would be adjusted accordingly. I suppose that would mean a severe nerf so that taking it out in time would be somewhat tricky, but not almost impossible. (Thus also solving the "max fleet, smash face into homeworld, refleet over a long period, smash face into homeworld,...,repeat until HW goes down" strategy from being the most obvious and attractive strategy)

TBH, I would also be opposed to any sort of hard timer based thing being a core mechanic in the AI homeworld defense. But on different reasons that are more fundamental than the current balance of the game.

Offline Toranth

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2013, 06:11:59 pm »
My proposed fix for #2 works this way:
  • When enough player strength is on the homeworld, the AI Home Command Station starts a countdown (say 60 seconds). For the benefit of the newbies, the game might autosave here.
  • When this countdown finishes, the AI starts a second countdown, maybe 1 hour on 7/7. When this countdown ends, the AI launches a CPA/exo of epic proportions, oppa Showdown style.
  • Killing the AI Home Command Station cancels the CPA/exo. In other words, you have 1 hour once the homeworld battle starts to finish the job, or the game is over.
(obviously homeworld defenses will need rebalancing accordingly)
I don't like this, because as I said above, I regularly will suicide my entire 2000+ ship fleet on a HW to kill a few Guardposts.  Those first few Brutal kills, especially, cost almost everything I've got.  Rebuilding from that takes a lot more than an hour, so this counter-Exo would doom me if strong enough.  If not strong enough, I'll ignore it and it'll have served no purpose at all.
I think you may have missed the part where he said HW defenses would be adjusted accordingly. I suppose that would mean a severe nerf so that taking it out in time would be somewhat tricky, but not almost impossible. (Thus also solving the "max fleet, smash face into homeworld, refleet over a long period, smash face into homeworld,...,repeat until HW goes down" strategy from being the most obvious and attractive strategy)

TBH, I would also be opposed to any sort of hard timer based thing being a core mechanic in the AI homeworld defense. But on different reasons that are more fundamental than the current balance of the game.
The problem is balance.  If the full-fleet homeworld smash is guaranteed to win, then there's no point in the countdown.  If the defenses remain strong enough that you are likely to lose, then either the Exo/CPA is nothing/doom, depending on your fixed defenses.  You'd want somewhere in between where you *might* lose, but it'd be very close.  And balancing that'd be so difficult as to be nearly impossible.

I don't see how a counterattack timer is really any different than a Core Raid or Core CPA, other than the guaranteed presence.  It doesn't make a fundamental change to the process of attacking a HW, unless the counter is so strong that any player that attacks and fails is doomed. 



My favorite moments in the game are in systems where there's complexity in how to solve it, or when things go wrong and I need to deal with it. Stuff where I can try to solve it with ships, or transports, or cloakers, or resort to warheads in desperation. The tactical diversity on the homeworld is lessened significantly.
I think part of the problem is that it is too easy to have defenses that cover each other's weakness. For example the core wraith's only real weakness I find aside from teleporting (which requires positive RNG on the player and isn't pretty at all in practice to defeat a wraith post) is to use cloaking. However, planetary cloaking covers this weakness. So in effect, the core wraith has no real weakness, and one shots everything it touches with a very wide swath.  That alone is bad enough, but then you got the other dozen or so things I mentioned also stopping you.
The anti-cloaking change basically killed anything strategy other than "Brute Force".  On the other hand, when cloaking was still possible, there were so many cheesy strategies that the HWs weren't difficult at all.
The Wrath Lance's major weakness is mobbing (and game settings), I think.  I'm pretty sure that each beam can only hit one ship per beam per frame, so if you reduce the frames/sec and have enough ships to absorb the damage, you can deal with the Lance.  Other than mobs and teleporters, though, the Lance is about as close to a perfect defense as the AI can get.

I don't know how much subtlety there is in AI War's in-system combat beyond cloaking and kiting.  Choosing your units?  For a HW attack, the answer is "All of them".  You can't kite, because your targets aren't moving.  You can't cloak.  You can't EMP.  You can't nuke.  What else is there?

Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2013, 06:43:45 pm »
I would still rather the AI be taught how to use mobile tachyon detectors properly instead of it always getting that planetary tachyon coverage. Then the planetary tachyon coverage can be shifted back into a brutal pick structure (aka, not always having it), but still not make cheesy cloak strategies OP.

But yea, we can't really get something all that "interesting" (as in, some newish or novel challenge that just isn't the kind of challenges you've already overcome to get there but just bigger in scale) considering the severe limitations of the combat engine.

Sure, you can get sort of get cool, novel stuff (like mobile guard posts and the core wraith lance), but due in no small part to the limited combat and physics engine, the way you deal with them is mostly the same, just with a small extra micro step.

Not sure what can be done about this...

Offline Gudamor

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Re: AI Homeworld Defense
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2013, 08:02:15 pm »
I would still rather the AI be taught how to use mobile tachyon detectors properly instead of it always getting that planetary tachyon coverage. Then the planetary tachyon coverage can be shifted back into a brutal pick structure (aka, not always having it), but still not make cheesy cloak strategies OP.

Hearteater's thread on expanding the Tachyon Guardin Family has some ideas regarding Tachyon coverage that could be worked into the AI HW defenses. Instead of the Home Command's blanket coverage disallowing cloaking permanently, it would allow for cloaking to be hard-but-doable.