AI Homeworld Defense

[Vitka]

I like idea of better interaction between CSGs and Core GPs mechanics. CSGs always seemed too artificial mechanic - I understand their function, but I wish they were less of blatant "you have to capture these planets". Also, spreading Core GPs from home worlds to core worlds would at least help to alleviate problem of "brutal GP cluster that counters everything" and make normal world -> core world -> homeworld difficulty curve a bit smoother, even through total amount of Core GPs might need to be increased. Some other changes may be needed to make it work through.

My suggestions for Core GPs:

1. Less special Core GPs on homeworlds, but some of them on core worlds.
2. If there is more than one brutal pick on a world, spawn then far apart.
3. Majority (like 4/5 or something), but not all Core GPs must be destroyed to make home command vulnerable. This is so you don't have to clear all core worlds, which may be too difficult to reach due to map peculiarities or other reasons.

The above should help to make difficulty wall a difficulty curve and help to prevent nigh-unwinnable situations described ITT.

For CSGs:

Rather than CSGs, have a number of Core Defense Command Stations, each of which will give significant bonus to Core GPs instead of complete immunity. This would give a choice about how much you want to weaken AI defenses as opposed to all-or-nothing CSG approach. Bonus should be balanced so that clearing some of these commands is required for homeworld assault to be feasible.

[KDR_11k]

The core worlds would be a lot more dangerious, but not as much. They do.t spawn with the current goodies AI HW do, their comm station would be vunnlerable, abd the strategic reserve would be less vigilant.

Who would ever fight on the HW instead of the core worlds then?

I think the idea is the some of the (formerly) AI HW exclusive stuff will seed on the core worlds instead. Some of the stuff will still be on the AI homeworld and couldn't be "bypassed" (presumably, some of the core guard posts and at least one of the brutal picks, assuming the brutal pick system is still in place). So you will still have to do some fighting on the AI homeworld.

Plus, if you think you got the numbers, you might as well avoid having the homeworld alerted longer than needed, bypass the core world, and just go for the homeworld straight up. (This is assuming that taking out the coreworlds is an optional addition to help weaken the homeworld, through that "linked guard post" system or some other system)

The idea is to provide opportunities for weak points. The player strikes at the weakest point. Obviously that's the one where the reserve has less strength and you don't have to move through a core world plus GPs and potentially brutals to get to.

[LaughingThesaurus]

KDR nailed it. Give the homeworld assault more weakpoints, but it still ends up very strong. You have to use strategy, pinpoint the weak spots, strike those down, and then take out the weaker when you are satisfied.

[TechSY730]

Well, for what it is worth, this newest version comes with a new hacking "thing" that effectively shuts down all AI tachyon emitters AND AI cloaked units AND AI camouflaged on a planet for a time. This includes planetary tachyon coverage.
EDIT: Oh yea, it also give your units cloaking, but just normal cloak, so they will still de-cloak on firing.

Could be VERY relevant for homeworld assaults.

[keith.lamothe]

Could be VERY relevant for homeworld assaults.

I thought so

The other one added in this release is also pretty relevant; I'm not sure how hard it will be in practice to pull off the sabotage but it can be used to clear out several fort/ff/etc units without needing to get in range.

[KDR_11k]

KDR nailed it. Give the homeworld assault more weakpoints, but it still ends up very strong. You have to use strategy, pinpoint the weak spots, strike those down, and then take out the weaker when you are satisfied.

Yeah and I think if we do this via redundancy on the core worlds the HW itself will always be the hardest spot for the fight so everybody's going to fight on the core worlds. Also a wrath lance on a core world would basically mean you aren't getting to the HW without killing it anyway.

[TIE Viper]

Not just the most recent couple hacking types, but HaP itself is very relevant for HW assaults.  I had to roll back my current 34 hr game to before 24 hrs because I couldn't handle the Fallen Spire exos but, I patched to the version with all the new hacking mechanics (I wasn't playing with any before this.)  Upon loading I discovered I had already used 125 HaP for my 2 ARS hacks, but I still had 400+ HaP left...kinda a glut of it really.  So I used it.  ALL of it.  And the end result was my fleet being boosted by about 50%.  I'd say going from 2K ships to 3K+ is rather significant.  With all the different hacking we can do now, we have made good progress towards being balanced again as far as HW assaults IMHO.

EDIT: It's worth noting that I treat the exos generated by killing multiple Core Guard Posts with just about as much care as I do the brutal HW picks.  Both of those can easily stall your momentum on a HW assault, and I'm not a fan of that.  However, I mind the brutal picks doing that much less than I do from the mini exos.  I honestly would prefer a separate toggle just for that instead of it being included in turning 'Lazy AI' off.

[muzzl]

I think the idea of making the homeworlds themselves harder to destroy is flawed.  Yes it is "interesting enough" to crack the defenses of the planets during the game, but what makes the game interesting overall isn't the victory of destroying a planet, but the decision about whether or not it will be "worth it" in the grand scheme of things.  The same sentiment keeps being repeated:  I am having the most fun at the times when the AI is threatening to win, when the current AI attack is difficult and complicated to deal with.  Also, why should the AI focus so hard on defending its first home world?  It's smart, it should understand that losing one home world isn't the end of the game, but that it represents the threat of the game ending.  For this reason, I think attacking an AI homeworld should not be a final test of the player's ability to destroy a planet's defense, but it should represent the AI's final, last ditch effort to eliminate the player all together.  The unleashing of the special forces is one step in this direction, but in my opinions, it does not go far enough.  Imagine this:

- Most of the strategic reserves do not unload on the home world itself, but in various locations around the galaxy, similar to how a CPA forms.
- The bulk of the reserves are held until the first home world is destroyed.
- The special forces are not unleashed until the first home world is destroyed.
- When the first home world is destroyed, several warpins begin.  Not just where there is a warp gate, but in several random player controlled planets.  We know the AI can do this, it just doesn't commit the resources to it -unless it deems the player a legitimate threat-
- The second AI home world becomes temporarily invincible.

Now you have something that is hopefully interesting to deal with.  Suddenly, the AI home worlds don't -need- to be nearly impossible to crack.  If you can deal with this attack, then you may easily take the second home world.  The AI tried to beat you and failed, so there is no longer any need to drag it out with a turtle fest.

It could even be taken a step further.  What if the constant warpins never end?  Either you survive until the invincibility of the second homeworld expires and you somehow have enough of a fleet to spare to make a final strike before the AI finishes you off, or you lose.  Increasing AI progress by a big number sort of accomplishes this already.  Just make that number bigger, and add a timer that stops the player from killing both home worlds at once.

[Kahuna]

^^Your first post! Welcome!

Just my opinions:

It's smart, it should understand that losing one home world isn't the end of the game

Not but it's the end of the other AI.

- When the first home world is destroyed, several warpins begin.  Not just where there is a warp gate, but in several random player controlled planets.  We know the AI can do this, it just doesn't commit the resources to it -unless it deems the player a legitimate threat-

The AIs could also send ALL ships in the galaxy to destroy the player immediately when the game starts but that would make the game impossible.

- When the first home world is destroyed, several warpins begin.  Not just where there is a warp gate, but in several random player controlled planets.  We know the AI can do this, it just doesn't commit the resources to it -unless it deems the player a legitimate threat-
- The second AI home world becomes temporarily invincible.

That's what the Core Shield Generators are for.

Increasing AI progress by a big number sort of accomplishes this already.  Just make that number bigger, and add a timer that stops the player from killing both home worlds at once.

No need to "double it" Jay Wilson style. Just increase the difficulty level.

People often talk about making the game harder even though they don't even play on 10/10 difficulty level.

[muzzl]

I am not talking about making the game harder, I am talking about making the game more interesting.  Once people have a solid defense they get bored and abandon their game.  Why?  They know the rest of it is going to be a pointless grindfest that they can't possibly lose...  But it's is going to take forever!  That's the result of an endgame based around cracking a turtle shell.

The core shield generators are a completely different mechanic than what I am talking about.  Sending all the ships against the player at the beginning of the game would just be silly.  Neither of those things accomplish the goal of making the end game a better experience worth sticking around for.  Try to understand the purpose of my suggestions, especially the part about the AI home worlds no longer needing to be incredibly difficult to conquer and requiring several fleet wipes.  This is not about making the game more difficult.

[Kahuna]

Ok I just attacked the AI home worlds in my current game and now I admit. AIs' home world defenses are a bit absurd (it has been a while since I attacked an AI home world last time). Sure it's 10/10 difficulty but still. Thousands and thousands of Mark V ships.. and they respawn like Neinzul Ships from a cap of Mobile Space Docks (almost). In other words: I think the problem is the Reserve.

Home world


Core planet

[Chthon]

You don't have to kill the ships, just the guard posts and command center.  Move in, take out a post, retreat till they despawn.  Repeat that.

[Vinraith]

Err, is 10/10 no longer supposed to be impossible? In the old days, at least, even being able to get to the AI Homeworlds on that difficulty was reason enough to bump up the difficulty of the game in the next patch.

[zoutzakje]

I think the homeworlds are fine as they are. I kinda always look forward to the final assault. Depending on what Core guard posts i find, where on the planet i find them, positions of the coreworlds, etc, my approach to them is always different.
And sending tons of ships to attack your other worlds is kinda what it already does... if you screw up. Wouldn't be the first time i died of mk V ships retaliation.

But to be fair, I haven't attacked any homeworlds since they changed the effect of a Core Guard Post death so we'll see what happens. Scouted both homeworlds in my current game and both have a bloody Core CPA. It will also be my first time fighting a Wrath Lance so that should be interesting.

[Kahuna]

Err, is 10/10 no longer supposed to be impossible? In the old days, at least, even being able to get to the AI Homeworlds on that difficulty was reason enough to bump up the difficulty of the game in the next patch.

well.. everything until the AI home worlds has been easy. including the 12500 ship CPA.