AI getting mechanics to defend that the humans cannot get.

[TechSY730]

I see this design choice get questioned alot recently, so I thought I should make a thread to discuss it.

This poll does NOT count the reinforcement system of guard posts and reinforemen warp gates.
This is mostly about new AI only defensive mechanics such as external invincibilty or the AI getting guardians instead of turrets, though you can comment on the power of guard posts or even the idea of armed guard posts. The core role of guard posts (a central point and warp point for defenders) is not up for debate in this thread.

Also note this poll and thread are mostly about AI exclusive mechanics, not about AI exclusive units.

[x4000]

This is nothing new to the game -- the AI having weapons that the humans don't get has been a big part of the game since 1.0 and before.  3.0, in many respects, was something a low point in terms of difficulty for the game.  The pendulum more recently has swung back the other direction.

I don't recall hearing anyone question this, but regardless, the mechanic is here to stay.

[TechSY730]

I agree. I think many people are missing the ease of the 3.0 days and how defending worked similarly for both sides, like traditional RTSs. This was of course never your design intent, so 4.0 helped to fix that, and some people are whining about that.

As for people questioning this new design path, check the ongoing thread about AI raid starships currently going on in the strategy subforum. Some of those complaints stem from these AI exclusive defense mechanics.

Personally, I like this design goal, as my vote should indicate

EDIT: Can this poll stay open? I would like to see other's comments on the subject.

[BobTheJanitor]

I'm fine with all the variety. The raid starships are just a single niche case where the same unit in both teams' hands becomes drastically different in power levels due to other external factors. I won't go into it all again because it's already getting pretty well beaten to death in that other thread.   

[snrub_guy]

Voted for it's ok, but only because I value gameplay variety over the technological narrative. I like the fact that most planets make me think about how i'm going to take each one.

[Vinraith]

If anything, I'd say it could stand to go further in the "AI has a bunch of stuff we don't" direction, which only serves to push up the strategic variety of the game. It's certainly not something to complain about, IMO.

[Red Spot]

Voted for the last option. In a nutshell, it is the reason I bought the game.
There are '13 in a dozen' games that set you up equally, or so they say, where the game ends up being easy/you know you are being cheated as you need 3 to fight 1(etc)/it just doesnt feel balanced between players.
As I read Chris state in the article about emergent AI he pretty much puts it as it is: when you want to play vs a human, play vs a human, not an AI programmed to play as a human. This game puts you up against 'an AI', but it clearly says on the tin that it does not want to fight you 1-on-1, it will smack you silly *tin may use different wording*.

[BobTheJanitor]

New toys for the bad guys are always interesting, as long as there is a viable counter. I don't want to rehash the other thread (see here: http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,8091.0.html ) but in general the problem is that there don't seem to be many great counters for raid starships, outside of micromanagement. And that's only viable if you know the ship is there. They can easily slip in with a wave, zip past to another planet in the chaos, and eat through many of your goodies before you notice. I'm not at all opposed to the AI getting all kinds of evil weaponry and tactics to keep us humans on our toes, but I just want to be able to counter them with intelligence and pre-planning, and not with panicked select-all fleet blobbing at the last second, or with having to reload my last autosave...

[Arcain_One]

[rant]
I considered it a given that the AI has a bunch of stuff that we don't have...
To list the v3.0 stuff:
-guard posts
-invisible wormhole guard posts
-warp gates
-raid engines
-core force fields
-astro trains
-astro train stations
-data centers
-super terminals
-co-processors
-[unseen] core starships
-exo-wormholes
-the ability to send in ships from outside of the galaxy
-the ability to have seemingly limitless amounts of resources and energy without using resource gathering structures
-the ability to make mass amounts of any mark of the ships they have available (and sometimes some that they don't have available)
-several things that we can only get thru a zenith trader

thats all that i can think of right now...

point being- the AI already had a lot of things we didn't get to build, and a lot of that we don't get to capture
I for one expect this list to grow 3x
In the story the AI nearly wiped us out, they must have developed some new stuff and we obviously lost the plans to some effective weapons (hence the Advanced research station)
[/rant]

[TechSY730]

[rant]
I considered it a given that the AI has a bunch of stuff that we don't have...
To list the v3.0 stuff:
-guard posts
-invisible wormhole guard posts
-warp gates
-raid engines
-core force fields
-astro trains
-astro train stations
-data centers
-super terminals
-co-processors
-[unseen] core starships
-exo-wormholes
-the ability to send in ships from outside of the galaxy
-the ability to have seemingly limitless amounts of resources and energy without using resource gathering structures
-the ability to make mass amounts of any mark of the ships they have available (and sometimes some that they don't have available)
-several things that we can only get thru a zenith trader

thats all that i can think of right now...

point being- the AI already had a lot of things we didn't get to build, and a lot of that we don't get to capture
I for one expect this list to grow 3x
In the story the AI nearly wiped us out, they must have developed some new stuff and we obviously lost the plans to some effective weapons (hence the Advanced research station)
[/rant]

REPEAT. This is NOT about AI-exclusive units. It is about AI-exclusive game mechanics, such as external invincibility. If that AI exclusive mechanic is provided through an AI exclusive unit, fine, but only if that mechanic cannot be accessed by any human unit. Planetary cloakers would fit that example. Only some of that things on that list count.

If this misunderstanding is prevalent enough, I may reset the poll and reword my question better.

NOTE: I am making a single exception with this, guardians, as they play such a big role in the AI's defense.

[BobTheJanitor]

I think the AI's exclusive access to emergent artificial intelligence is unfair. I want one of my own!

Of course, this can only end with my house wiped out and me as the last remnant huddling in a closet (with one cat) while all of the PCs in the house form death squads to watch over the doors leading from one room to the next.

[Tridus]

The asymmetrical nature of the game is what drew me to it. There's more then enough games out there that try to keep the AI playing "fairly", which inevitably means that it has to cheat like crazy while pretending to follow the rules to keep up with a human.

In AI War, the AI doesn't try to act like a human player. It plays like an AI that has conquered the galaxy. As it should be. Makes the game better.

[UberJumper]

-[unseen] core starships

Has anyone actually ever seen the AI use a core starship?

[Arcain_One]

REPEAT. This is NOT about AI-exclusive units. It is about AI-exclusive game mechanics, such as external invincibility. If that AI exclusive mechanic is provided through an AI exclusive unit, fine, but only if that mechanic cannot be accessed by any human unit. Planetary cloakers would fit that example. Only some of that things on that list count.

If this misunderstanding is prevalent enough, I may reset the poll and reword my question better.

NOTE: I am making a single exception with this, guardians, as they play such a big role in the AI's defense.

Do pardon, I did misunderstand your intent, though I do not agree that when discussing exclusive mechanics we should also include exclusive units.

For the record, to the base I dislike the idea of invincibility in any form. 10¹⁵ health is a good enough substitute and is realistic enough.

But the AI is by definition not human and not supposed to act human, by not being equal we should not judge it by the same standards.

What we get completely out weighs anything the AI gets [or else the AI would win every time  ]
-the ability to reload a save for any reason
-the allowance of using all of your mobile military on one single attack
-critical thinking (emergent behavior only simulates this, to save CPU usage  )
-memory (as I remember, this was not ever going to be implemented)
-knowledge (this doesn't count much as the AI has unlocked everything it can anyhoo)
-scouts(again, not much use for the AI)
-the right to complain (this helps us a lot when the game is unbalanced, can't hear the AI complaining about being rushed)

Dang, now I look like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing.
I suppose I have lost the point of the difference in AIs allowances between 3.0 and 5.0

To be honest, I find little difference between versions, I use the same tactics and progress at the same dreadfully slow pace
Some of the changes were made to be indistinguishable for some play types.
And the reason for those changes were needed to enhance the game in one way or another,
and in the way that it was because we can't think of a better solution right now.

...       I still look like I'm arguing for the sake of arguing....   
I suppose that goes for trying to help the matter when I have no idea of what I'm doing 

To a ending note: I like the features and would like more 

[TechSY730]

Do pardon, I did misunderstand your intent, though I do not agree that when discussing exclusive mechanics we should also include exclusive units.

I'm confused. This thread is supposed to be about AI-only mechanics and not AI-only units. Are you saying that this is or isn't useful line of inquiry?