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Author Topic: AI Carriers  (Read 3375 times)

Offline Kahuna

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AI Carriers
« on: September 20, 2014, 09:19:12 am »
Thanks to the Carriers there's no reason to unlock any other Turrets before Mark IV Needler and Laser Turrets because they're the only Turrets that counter Heavy. Sure Gravitational or Tractor Turrets.. but when it comes to damage dealing Turrets.. anything that doesn't counter Heavy is a no-go. A Carrier with carrying 1000 ships is comparable to a Mark I Hunter/Killer.

Do Carriers or Turrets need a change?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 09:43:22 am by Kahuna »
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2014, 09:29:35 am »
Sounds like it's time to mention ship stacks! Sorry Keith :) .
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2014, 09:30:29 am »
Carriers used to have the Scout hull type, which generally is not vulnerable to anything.  They were given Heavy to make them vulnerable to something.  I guess I could switch them back to Scout and divide their health by 3 to basically make it so everything gets 3x vs them. 

I do agree that in their current "big mass of ships" form (where they deal damage and take damage based on contents) that it's not desirable to turn any carrier-mass attack into a contest of "how much vs-heavy stuff can I build?".

@Hearteater: they practically ARE ship stacks now ;)
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2014, 09:43:27 am »
I just killed a Mark I Hunter/Killer. Full Carrier is much stronger.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 11:49:33 am by Kahuna »
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Offline Toranth

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2014, 09:47:51 am »
Quote from: keith.lamothe on September 20, 2014, 09:30:29 am
Carriers used to have the Scout hull type, which generally is not vulnerable to anything.  They were given Heavy to make them vulnerable to something.  I guess I could switch them back to Scout and divide their health by 3 to basically make it so everything gets 3x vs them.
I like this idea, with one caveat - can we get rid of the Human Fortress's 0.05 Scout hull multiplier?
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Offline tadrinth

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2014, 11:19:31 am »
I definitely agree that something needs done, though I'm not particularly picky as to what.  I picked up Core Needler and Laser turrets ASAP in my Limburger game for exactly this reason. 

 The only other core turrets I care about are Sniper and Spider, for killing space planes. 
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2014, 03:27:17 pm »
Ideally, the carrier would have a hull type of the current ship type "taking damage".

However, if that is too difficult to code or too difficult to make a good UI for, then the scout hull type with the HP nerf would be a good compromise.

Incidentally, why hasn't scout hull type been split into scout and transport hull types?
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Offline Lord Of Nothing

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2014, 03:54:28 pm »
And if whichever one taking damage is unfeasible, what about most common ship inside upon creation?
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2014, 02:27:26 am »
Quote from: TechSY730 on September 20, 2014, 03:27:17 pm
Ideally, the carrier would have a hull type of the current ship type "taking damage".
I don't think that would be a good idea. Carrier "changing it's hull type" all the time would be just weird.
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2014, 12:56:41 pm »
Update: Swarmers can be extremely dangerous in AI's hands. The AI just sent a mono wave of +17000 Tachyon MicroFighters. So it had 17 full Carriers and a couple of hundred free ships.

17 full Carriers. That hurt.

10/10 @ 139 AIP.

Average wave with a mix of normal ship cap ships has about 2000-3000 ships. Raid Engines send about 3000-5000 Mark=PlanetMark ships each.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2014, 12:59:27 pm by Kahuna »
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Offline tadrinth

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2014, 03:29:17 pm »
The rate at which carriers deploy in waves seems way too low to me.  In my Limburger game carriers would typically deploy maybe 150-250 units at a time, even if there were only 200ish free ships in the system.  The waves would start with a nice round 1000 loose ships, but carrier deployments would not maintain even close to that level.

If the carriers get extra shots based on the strength they contain, carriers full of microfighters shouldn't really be that scary compared to carriers full of scarier units.  On the other hand, a carrier's base DPS might be pretty scary all by itself if you have enough of them, even without much in the way of extra shots.  Maybe the scaling needs looked at? 

I'm playing my next game on Low Caps to try to reduce the distortion from having waves deploy almost entirely in carriers, and I may go to Ultra Low if that's not enough.
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2014, 09:34:57 am »
True^^ the number of extra shots should be based on strength not on number of ships. But then there should be a way to see how much strength the Carrier has. How much damage it does exactly.

A carrier full of Autocannons seems scarier than a Hunter/Killer.
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Offline tadrinth

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2014, 05:59:37 pm »
Quote from: Kahuna on October 07, 2014, 09:34:57 am
True^^ the number of extra shots should be based on strength not on number of ships.

Looks like that's how they're supposed to work: http://arcengames.blogspot.com/2014/05/ai-war-beta-7025-extermination-protocol.html
Quote
Now base their number of shots per salvo off the strength of the units they contain

Would be nice to be able to tell exactly how many extra shots a particular carrier is getting, I agree. 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 11:22:35 am by tadrinth »
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2014, 02:28:41 am »
Hmmm ok. Maybe I was wrong.
Although the only difference I've noticed between a "Carrier filled with Armor Ships" and a "Carrier filled with Autocannons" is that the one filled with the Autocannons dies much faster. It would be really hard to actually notice the DPS difference though so maybe that's why I haven't noticed it.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 02:31:43 am by Kahuna »
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Offline tadrinth

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Re: AI Carriers
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2014, 11:24:55 am »
Actually, now that I think about it, carriers currently violate an important design principle of AI war, because you can't tell how much firepower they have by looking at them. 
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