Advanced hybrids and hidden maps - not a good combo

[atomjack]

I recently started a new game - 90 planets, 8/8 "random harder" AIs, LotS, advanced hybrids, no spirecraft/golems, and my usual "map is hidden" settings.

This was a mistake.

The super hybrid spawned. I'd found the dyson world (but only just), but only had ~50% of the galaxy scouted. By the time it had built the antagoniser, I had ~75% of the galaxy scouted. I only had 6 or 7 planets at this stage - not enough to fend off the gatlings and the hybrids for long. I threw my entire resource base into frantically scouting for the &$£%^"& hybrid, and finally found it (4 hops away from any friendly planet, all of those mkIII or mkIV) just before the gatlings overwhelmed my defenses.

Argh.

Memo to self: with lots of planets and advanced hybrids on, scouting just became *really* important. I'd been trying a game without spirecraft to avoid the cheats option of building a pair of spire scouts and covering the entire galaxy with them . Well, I was right: it *is* more difficult!

[Shrugging Khan]

Welcome to my world

I refuse to play any way other than without Spirecraft, with Hybrids, and with the map hidden.

And no mkIV scouts!

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, hybrids + unrevealed map = player gonna sweat

[zoutzakje]

yup, that's pretty much why I lost my previous game before Keith made friendly dysons shoot at mk V targets as well. I always play with map hidden just because I enjoy "creating" the map, so to speak. It was my very first game with hybrids and then mid game keith had to decide to give them some extra nastyness lol. I managed to beat the game after a new patch, but I never found that antagonizer.

[Shrugging Khan]

SWEET MOTHER OF FU

I just learned that the Antagoniser does not actually need to be in the Sphere's company to make it hate me. Which is bad, because the Sphere planet is right in the middle of my undefended centre, providing patrols for the hinterland. And I haven't spotted that damned Antagoniser yet, either - in fact, I doubt I will. It's a 120-planet map with most worlds still unexplored.

And my fleet can't move to intercept the Gatlings because there's a devourer golem in the way. Or maybe I could transport them past it? In either case, my economy isn't strong enough to support sustained fleet efforts against the Gatlings while simultaneously going on a clueless search for the antagoniser while there's L8 Spire Hammer waves and hybrids and all kinds of nasties swarming around everywhere.

Be blunt, gentlemen: How screwed am I?

Update: Transported my Fleet into the Beast's Belly, pushed the Gatlings back far enough to build a base on top of a wormhole - as well as a Cursed Golem. Didn't intend to take it before, preferring to leave things to the Dyson, but by now it hardly makes a difference, eh? Lost half my starships and my entire base fleet, trashing my economy right now to rebuild the latter. Trying to get some stationary defences set up, but I doubt I'll have the resources. mkIII counterattack wave coming in, too, in addition to tonnes of hybrids from alerted planets I couldn't neuter yet, as well as threat waves from where I pulled fleet and patrols away. The remaining allied Gatlings are doing their defensive duty so far, but they're being thinned out bit by bit. Also, they apparently can't be arsed to go back to the Dyson Sphere and clean house. Hostile Gatlings are accumulating faster than I dare to count.

So, the situation is FUBAR as per the usual. I may have mere minutes left. How can I locate the antagoniser?

[keith.lamothe]

Be blunt, gentlemen: How screwed am I?

I'd rate it at about this , you're going to need to have a significant amount of firepower camping the dyson itself (but don't build a command station on it) while you find the antagonizer.  Potentially, your friendly dysons may buy you enough time.

And that's a lot of nasties to face.  Follow the simple military policy of Gen. Jeb Stuart: "When outnumbered, attack."

[keith.lamothe]

The antagonizer only provokes 2-dyson spawns; building a command station on the dyson planet itself increases that by 5, dramatically increasing the snafumeter.

To find the antagonizer, well, scout everything within 4 hops of non-AI space

[Shrugging Khan]

Nice screw, that.

Ninja edit-remove-repost: Update2: Scratch that, the Gatlings broke clean through what was left of my fleet faster than I could refield it, left me no time to set up defences, and by now are close to and impossible to prevent from outnumbering the remaining allied gatlings.

Time for a new game.

So, to make it a simple question, what options really screw me over here? Would making the map non-hidden enable me to spot the Antagoniser, or would I still have to scout for it? Would it even be possible to reach it in time on a 120-planet map, or am I, once again, simply screwed if it decides to set up shop a dozen hops away? Or is this not an issue of map size or map visibility, but in fact one of needing to play a high AIP game when advanced hybrids are enabled?


PS: Thanks for the tips, building the command station was my undoing. If I'd known better, I'd have made for abandoning all territories on one side of the Dyson world, fortifying the other half with stationary defences and some fleet support, and breaking through ASAP to the nearest Golem.

So the Antagoniser is always a maximum of 4 hops away from player territory? Or seriously non-AI-territory? Which means that to find it, I'd need high-level scouts or sufficient defences to by myself enough time to make military/transport-assisted scouting runs... my, oh my.

[keith.lamothe]

So, to make it a simple question, what options really screw me over here?

Hybrids.  The non-shown-map effect is really more psychological than practical, though not knowing which wormholes to take to scout the higher densities of planets first is a real disadvantage.

Would making the map non-hidden enable me to spot the Antagoniser, or would I still have to scout for it?

No, you'd still need to scout for it

Would it even be possible to reach it in time on a 120-planet map, or am I, once again, simply screwed if it decides to set up shop a dozen hops away?

It shouldn't ever put it 12 hops away.  4 should be the max.

Or is this not an issue of map size or map visibility, but in fact one of needing to play a high AIP game when advanced hybrids are enabled?

High AIP shouldn't be necessary, just high scout coverage and the ability to project a serious level of force 4 hops out while still protecting your homeworld.  You don't have to take the antagonizer's planet to kill it, just find it and shooty-shooty-bang-bang.

So the Antagoniser is always a maximum of 4 hops away from player territory? Or seriously non-AI-territory? Which means that to find it, I'd need high-level scouts or sufficient defences to by myself enough time to make military/transport-assisted scouting runs... my, oh my.

It tries for a planet that takes exactly 4 hops to get to from the nearest planet that does not have an AI command station on it.  So if you take a planet but don't colonize it, it still counts.

Are we having fun yet?

[Shrugging Khan]

Oh, we are having fun.

Imma gonna get me sum magma switch for the next game. A Golem maybe; or just enough fortresses to kill any Gatlings coming their way.

[Fruden]

 Hi, i didn't want to make a new thread for this, and this seems like a proper place to say it, but would it be possible to look at the number of hybrids in 120 planet maps? In my current challenge game i had 150 hybrids camping me at 75minutes, i eventually got them and more, and now at 3h40m i've destroyed 570 hybrids. That seems rather extreme...

 On topic, at difficulty 8 i'm pretty sure that scouts 2 are enough to find the baddie. Once you get the message for a strange signal, that means the super hybrid is sitting within a few planets, so using transports to skip close planets to update scout readings on all planets within a few hops will change the message from "strange signal somewhere" to "strange signal on that planet". The super hybrid has 40M hp (hull=heavy) and a 10M hp shield (hull=structural), by the time it appears you should have the tools to get rid of it before it builds its special structure.

[orzelek]

Please don't forget about the fact that antagonizer has mere 80m hp... so killing it on enemy planet where your transports can barely arrive is highly acrobatic 

Could you reconsider maybe building it a bit closer to player? With current stat for me it's simply hybrids or dyson. Antagonizer and continuation is simply grinding.. there is nothing fun with it. And for grinding I can get an MMO.

(And in a game with bombards there is simply no way to get transport past the 3 planets they are intended for at max)

[keith.lamothe]

Please don't forget about the fact that antagonizer has mere 80m hp... so killing it on enemy planet where your transports can barely arrive is highly acrobatic 

Could you reconsider maybe building it a bit closer to player? With current stat for me it's simply hybrids or dyson. Antagonizer and continuation is simply grinding.. there is nothing fun with it. And for grinding I can get an MMO.

(And in a game with bombards there is simply no way to get transport past the 3 planets they are intended for at max)

Ok, ok, there can be some relenting   Earlier on it was hardly even happening for people, so I kept making it more likely.  Now it's likely, and too hard

[TechSY730]

About the bombard and transport thing.

Any chance of giving transports an immunity to antimatter bombs or giving bombards (and other similar high powered, high range (>> missile frigate range) stuff) a rather punishing to very punishing multiplier against scout hulls?

EDIT: And yes, making the antogonizer/converter a little easier to get to and to kill would be appreciated.

[zoutzakje]

tsss the hybrids are supposed to be a pain lol. when the antagonized dysons come rush for your homeworld, use a martyr or 3. that should do the trick and give you some time before the next assault on your homeworld. Or even better, just make sure to have a scout on every planet in a 4 hop-radius. Or start scouting as soon as you the warning. vIt's not like the antagonizer is build instantly, it takes a while to finish. Probably enough even to neuter every planet along the way once you've found where it is hiding.
Only reason I got my ass kicked the first time is because I didn't know what was happening to me (so i will most likely get killed when I play with advanced hybrids lol). Next time I'll make the hybrids cry.
How about not making it easier, but just making it optional. That way people can chose if they want to have their butt handed to them by the antagonizer or just by regular hybrids