Author Topic: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'  (Read 3173 times)

Offline amcarroll32

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Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« on: October 18, 2011, 08:37:42 am »
First post on here, and I love this game.  I've been playing vanilla for a year, and recently downloaded the trials of the expansions.  Would have bought them, but I'm working with Steam support to resolve a duplicate key issue and haven't been able to purchase yet.  Absolutely no complaints at all with Arcen or the game itself, just Steam and pirates using keygens.

With the amount of customization, factions, etc available, one thing that surprises me is that the knowledge seems to always be fixed at 3000 / planet.  I know this is for balance reasons, but I think it would add quite a bit to the game to be able to have the option of changing this value, and possibly also the rate that knowledge is gained. 

It never seems to be an issue to collect all 3000 knowledge available at a planet - even a couple Science Lab II's get the knowledge quickly.  Every planet gets fully collected right away, then my Science Labs sitting around waiting for the next capture.  You might as well just get 3000 knowledge for killing the AI command center without having to build and manage Science Labs.

If I could set each planet to have say, a cap of 5000 knowledge, but gather that knowledge at 10% of the current rate, suddenly gathering knowledge becomes much more of a strategic decision.

I also have trouble finding time to play a campaign on a larger map, but find that 10-15 planet maps just don't give enough knowledge to unlock powerful tools and avoid a grind against the IV / Homeworlds.  Being able to double knowledge, and unlock some more powerful ships (and economy tools) would make these smaller maps more playable.

On the other hand, for experienced players may want to handicap themselves by decreasing knowledge.

Something else that I've been seeing and liking in the expansions is the Distribution Nodes & Zenith Reserve fleets.  Maybe they are included and I just haven't spent enough time in the expansion, but having structures that give knowledge when destroyed would be an interesting enhancement.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts.  Maybe this should fall more under modding than enhancements to the game itself, but having a place in the universe generation where you can adjust knowledge would certainly be simpler and doesn't seem like it would be difficult to implement.

Offline x4000

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Re: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2011, 08:49:27 am »
Thanks for the kind words, and the support!

In terms of why we don't allow knowledge to be changed around... this has been much discussed in the past.  The forum archives have the full debates I expect, and I think there may be something on the wiki referring to it, too. 

The main reason is that, essentially, knowledge is one of the major reward structures of the game as you play, and getting to adjust your rate of reward and new unlocks seems... pretty much like a cheat.  And we already have a cheat that gives you more knowledge if you want it.  So the flexibility is there already, you can get a ton of K if you want to experiment around and don't mind the cheat flag on your game, but it's one of those things that destroys balance when you use it as a cheat.

Could it be made to work in a balanced fashion outside of the current cheat implementation?  Absolutely, I'm sure it could.  The challenge is that requires the AI to get stronger in some comparable way, since you'll have more and/or better ships.  OR it requires at least a score adjustment like taking uneven handicaps do.  So there's a couple of ways that could work, and really a ton of ways it could be implemented.

But the question I keep coming back to is: why?  I agree that flexibility is a good thing, but I think that too many lobby options can be a bad thing.  And for something that is already available as a cheat if people want to experiment or "just play," the flexibility is there.  It's just not supported as a core non-cheat mode of play.  Part of the reason for that is that this game is based around making interesting choices with limited supplies compared to your foe.  There's a lot of modes of the game that already deviate from that -- defender mode, multi-planet starts, fallen spire, etc -- but the knowledge thing is a little more core.

There are various other considerations, too, such as the number of planets that players have to take for K and energy reasons, and whether they'd be likely to take enough planets to make the AI a credible threat if the K were adjustable in certain ways.  So in other words, players might skimp on territory and then have the game wildly shift in balance with these options, despite whatever on-paper-fine AI compensations we'd have put in from the start.  Multi-planet starts took a long time to get balanced right, for instance, and they're still a very different game from a single-planet start.  Come to think of it, that's a way to get a pretty great knowledge boost too, though.

Anyway, I'm not saying we'd never do it, but these are among the reasons we've not done it before, and why I'm not keen to tackle it outside of a major release cycle (next one coming up Q2 next year).  It's a possibility that we could do something along these lines, but there's never been a super large amount of player support for it that I recall.  One way to gauge that would be to get it into mantis as a suggestion and then get people to vote it up.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness, but I've not thought about this particular issue since before Fallen Spire and so a lot of it was coming back to me in bits and pieces. ;)
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Offline amcarroll32

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Re: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2011, 09:09:08 am »
Wow, thank you for the quick and comprehensive post.  That really answered all of my questions. 

I 'knew' cheats were there, but hadn't thought about them at all in this context. 

Just want you to know that this level of thought and attention to detail is what makes this such a great game.  I've played a lot of games, and the only one that I've ever felt something close to this level of love from the developers is Dwarf Fortress.

Offline x4000

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Re: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2011, 09:30:58 am »
My pleasure!  And thanks again.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2011, 10:10:53 am »
What Chris said :)

In response to some folks wanting to play the smaller maps more seriously we made the knowledge cheat actually accepts a parameter that simply defaults to 10000.  It can be positive or negative, so "Give Me K,-9000" will take away 9000 stored K.  That way you can grant whatever actual K value you want per planet that you capture.  It does it instantly too, so if you want to dispense with the time required to actually harvest it you can just scrap all your science ships and do all the "harvesting" via the cheat.

I'm sure that an actual balancing for small maps is desirable, it's just very difficult to fit into the same balancing as the average 80 planet game, and we don't want to mess that one up for this :)  Even more, we don't want multiple "official" balances and thus have multiple rebalancings to do every time we change something big! ;)
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Offline zoutzakje

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Re: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2011, 12:49:12 pm »
I actually have a lobby option idea for knowledge. I'm a big fan of randomness (or the feeling of randomness) and so I thought it'd be great to have the amount of knowledge one can gather from a single planet to be random. Let's say any given number from 1000 to 5000, never exceeding the 'normal' knowledge limit in a galaxy. A 100 planet galaxy would normally have 300k knowledge available. This should not change with random knowledge enabled. The default would be so that every player can see how much knowlegde he/she can gather from a planet once that planet has been scouted. Of course there should also be an option to turn that off, so you'll never know how much knowledge you can gather from one planet (for die-hard players).
This should add a whole new strategic element to the game and could make it significantly more difficult (or easier).
Don't know what everyone else thinks, but I would play with random knowledge on at all times.

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2011, 02:18:25 pm »
Not really commenting on random knowledge per planet itself, but hiding that value would actually prevent strategic planning since you wouldn't know how valuable planets are (knowledge-wise) until after you've claimed it.  Having it be visible initially would add another factor in determining which systems to take and which to skip.

Offline zoutzakje

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Re: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2011, 02:35:39 pm »
which is why I would want to add an option to turn it off... for die-hards :P I know that wouldn't have anything to do with strategy lol. Note that I said i like randomness.

Offline PokerChen

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Re: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2011, 07:44:38 am »
I'm not as enamoured to fidgeting around with per-planet-knowledge as I first thought. For me, it'll end up being another cog in the overall "worth-taking?" calculation. It's a good sanity check that even the emptiest planet I took for making defense networks still gives a useful amount of knowledge.

Separately on the variable planet knowledge idea, given a good seed I could probably take 10 worlds and have ~15 worlds' worth of knowledge...Within the philosophy of minimum-AIP gaming, this is practically -100 AIP, a huge deal when I can unlock eco-command IIIs plus a a few mark IIIs for that knowledge.
Well, at that point I'd probably unlock ecoIII and raid starshipIII, run a few data centres then take a planet (temporarily) with the most number of connections and knowledge raid them all - after which on a simple/realistic map will likely mean I now have almost all the ships I need to assault the core while keeping the AI at the lowest mark ships...
This touches on the point of game progress, around which probably hangs much of the past discussions. I would prefer to place the mid-game transition at the point where AIs first double their firepower by increasing ship marks (IMO probably the biggest event, even more than CPA). The players' firepower at this point is effectively determined by accumulated knowledge (minus golems/spirecraft). Simplistically, difficulty is determined by relative firepower: Firepowerrel.~ AIShipMark*AIP/Knowledgeaccum. , and fiddling with this may just make the game a cake-walk.

...end rant. I should probably shut up and put this in the wiki under "theory-crafting" instead...

« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 07:46:22 am by zharmad »

Offline Hearteater

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Re: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2011, 10:17:27 am »
That's a good point zharmad, but I think if the distribution of high and low K-values wasn't random it could make it exceedingly unlikely that you could take just 10 planets for bonus knowledge and not have a very wide front to defend.  There is also some conversation on the mantis suggestion.

Offline NickAragua

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Re: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2011, 12:09:02 pm »
I suppose I wouldn't mind seeing a little variance in available knowledge per planet, as long as the following criteria were met:

1) Total knowledge in the galaxy stays the same
2) Random knowledge per planet is always a multiple of 250 (or, even better, 500)
2.5) There is a minimum amount of knowledge per planet.
3) We throw away knowledge distributions that reduce the "fun level" of the game - i.e. where all the knowledge is hidden behind a bunch of MK IV worlds.
4) There's an option to turn this foolishness off and just play with straight up even knowledge spread.

Offline zoutzakje

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Re: Adjusting Knowledge & Knowledge 'Distribution Nodes'
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2011, 05:06:51 am »
I suppose I wouldn't mind seeing a little variance in available knowledge per planet, as long as the following criteria were met:

1) Total knowledge in the galaxy stays the same
2) Random knowledge per planet is always a multiple of 250 (or, even better, 500)
2.5) There is a minimum amount of knowledge per planet.
3) We throw away knowledge distributions that reduce the "fun level" of the game - i.e. where all the knowledge is hidden behind a bunch of MK IV worlds.
4) There's an option to turn this foolishness off and just play with straight up even knowledge spread.

this is pretty much what we want to see. there is a discussion going on about this subject on Mantis