About that Human Home Forcefield Generator...

[keith.lamothe]

So, the Human Home Forcefield Generator tied for second in the most recent worst-unit poll and I've been going through the results, but not sure to do on this one. 

(for anyone unclear on what this unit is: it's the FF-gen that each Human Home Command Station starts right next to; it's basically a normal FF-I but has a much larger radius and cannot be replaced if lost)

The nomination largely focused on making the unit immune-to-immune-to-forcefields (i.e. eyebots and raid starships could not shoot through it, etc) but that's not really something that would be very friendly to the current code structure.  Specifically, because each ship can only track a single protecting forcefield, it would have to always pick the home-FF if it was covered by it at all, which would cause the home-FF to take basically all the incoming firepower even if it was drowning in a sea of MkIII FFs on all sides.  This would quickly dispatch the home-FF, I figure.  Also, having it take such precedence wouldn't be the easiest thing to accomodate in terms of CPU-cost.

So I'd figure I'd buff its health (to like 4x of what it is) and regen rate or something like that, but it occurs to me that this may not actually address the reason why over a third of the poll voters put one of their votes into it.

Thoughts?  Alternatives?

[TechSY730]

Maybe give it the "protects the command station of the planet" effect, like Core guard posts and command station shield guard posts have?
From my brief messing around (read, torturing the engine with modifying save files in unsupported ways ), I have determined that the "protects the command station of the planet" effect works just fine for human command stations.

Something may need to be done to make it less likely to be the first one to be destroyed, though. Maybe give it the lowest "forcefield protection priority", meaning it will protect what is under it if and only if there is no other forcefield can protect something it covers?

Giving Mk. IV-like stats might be good as an alternative, to give us something like the Mk. V forcefield that the AIs get for their home. Or if you want to be really crazy, in addition to.

[keith.lamothe]

Maybe give it the "protects the command station of the planet" effect, like Core guard posts and command station shield guard posts have?
From my brief messing around (read, torturing the engine with modifying save files in unsupported ways ), I have determined that the "protects the command station of the planet" effect works just fine for human command stations.

Iirc, the AI has no concept of that flag (outside of the minor faction logic at the end of Fallen Spire for dealing with Core Guard Posts, which isn't efficient enough for general-purpose use).  So it might incidentally kill that specifically forcefield generator during a homeworld attack but it wouldn't prioritize it the way it will the home command if it thinks it has a shot at killing it.

[TechSY730]

Maybe give it the "protects the command station of the planet" effect, like Core guard posts and command station shield guard posts have?
From my brief messing around (read, torturing the engine with modifying save files in unsupported ways ), I have determined that the "protects the command station of the planet" effect works just fine for human command stations.

Iirc, the AI has no concept of that flag (outside of the minor faction logic at the end of Fallen Spire for dealing with Core Guard Posts, which isn't efficient enough for general-purpose use).  So it might incidentally kill that specifically forcefield generator during a homeworld attack but it wouldn't prioritize it the way it will the home command if it thinks it has a shot at killing it.

Hmm, so this could cause the AI to sort of become "unfocused" during homeworld assaults, as it couldn't target the home command station (with it being invincible until the home-FF goes down), and it wouldn't treat the home-FF specially?


Could you just add the home-FF to the list of "high priority to attack" list of units the AI goes for, like advanced factories and other such structures are?
With the previously mentioned "lowest FF protector priority" thing I mentioned (which I have no idea how hard that would be to implement), and maybe Mk. II or Mk. III FF stats, this wouldn't cause the home-FF to die so much quicker.

[keith.lamothe]

Could you just add the home-FF to the list of "high priority to attack" list of units the AI goes for, like advanced factories and other such structures are?

The problem isn't that they wouldn't try to attack it, it's that it would be invincible and they wouldn't realize that the proper response is to target the thing providing invincibility.  Not that that behavior couldn't be added, but adding that kind of rule would take a lot of time to get right.  Not what I'm looking for from tied-for-second-on-a-poll

With the previously mentioned "lowest FF protector priority" thing I mentioned (which I have no idea how hard that would be to implement), and maybe Mk. II or Mk. III FF stats, this wouldn't cause the home-FF to die so much quicker.

But then it wouldn't actually stop the home command station from getting hit by eyebots unless it was the only FF protecting the home command station.  I dunno about you, but I can't imagine not piling more FFs on my home command   Or, at least, I don't want this to be a choice between the two.

[Martyn van Buren]

How about letting the home command station pass on any damage it takes to the home FF as long as the home FF is alive?  Since they're always right next to each other, surely that would have the same effect as having the AI targeting the FF?

[TechSY730]

Sorry, what I am suggesting is that,
1. Human Home FF (HFF) would get the "provides invincibility to the command station on that planet", which would work even if it wasn't protecting the home at henmoment, it just has to be alive.
2. Add it to the list of high value structures list the AI has, so it will still try to take it out when it can't target the home command station.
3. Give it "lowest FF protector priority" so that other forcefields will take damage first, with the HFF only taking damage if there is no other forcefields protecting something it is covering. This way, even though the AI would prioritize it, it wouldn't die quicker than it does now if you are sane and have other forcefields protecting your home as well.
4. (optional) boost be HFF stats to a Mk. II or Mk. III level

[keith.lamothe]

Sorry, what I am suggesting is that,
1. Human Home FF (HFF) would get the "provides invincibility to the command station on that planet", which would work even if it wasn't protecting the home at henmoment, it just has to be alive.

Yea, not gonna work without extensive changes to the AI "what should I be shooting at?" code, I'm afraid   Even with

2. Add it to the list of high value structures list the AI has, so it will still try to take it out when it can't target the home command station.

But thanks for the clarification, that it is a very different thing than I was understanding.

[DrTall]

I am curious, what is design goal of the Human Home defense thing?

If the fact that it can't be rebuilt means it is supposed to be a one-time use escape hatch from losing the game, maybe a totally different direction would be interesting, like a one-time AI-ship-only EMP that can't leave the homeworld? Alternatively, if it is supposed to be a big mistake if you lose it, maybe it should not be a stronger forcefield, but maybe be a turret or a munitions booster type of thing, so you really feel permanently weakened by losing it?

[sarudak]

Could you just add the home-FF to the list of "high priority to attack" list of units the AI goes for, like advanced factories and other such structures are?

The problem isn't that they wouldn't try to attack it, it's that it would be invincible and they wouldn't realize that the proper response is to target the thing providing invincibility.  Not that that behavior couldn't be added, but adding that kind of rule would take a lot of time to get right.  Not what I'm looking for from tied-for-second-on-a-poll

What if you just simply made the home command forcefield a much higher priority that the home command post so that the AI would always go for that over anything else in the system including the human home command?

[Wanderer]

The home command station force field has three annoyances to me.

1) If you're not prepared for FF ignoring entities on the first wave(s) your stockpile of +AIP stuff that you start with gets chewed to itsy bitsy pieces.
2) Get hit with a few siege starships and the equivalent occurs.
3) I know it's not true but it feels like the blessed thing has as many HPs as a FF I.

I personally would support the idea of simply doing damage transfer from those starting components (HCC, Settlements, cryopods) that are irreplaceable and game ending to the HFF.  It'd go a long way to lowering the problems.  It's not really late game that's a concern.  By the time somthing hits your home system in the late game with enough firepower to be concerned you're probably dead.  It's early/midgame waves and raiders.

[TechSY730]

The home command station force field has three annoyances to me.

1) If you're not prepared for FF ignoring entities on the first wave(s) your stockpile of +AIP stuff that you start with gets chewed to itsy bitsy pieces.
2) Get hit with a few siege starships and the equivalent occurs.

Not really sure how to deal with those short of making the home FF not a forcefield but rather a "mega exo-shield" or something. Actually, that might not be a bad idea. Or at least, indirectly solve the "complaint" by adding a new, spawned on game start, non-rebuildable exo-shield for the command station, that would act like the exo-shield for the harvesters, except without the cloaking of course.

That wouldn't help with the other stuff, but it would be a start.

I personally would support the idea of simply doing damage transfer from those starting components (HCC, Settlements, cryopods) that are irreplaceable and game ending to the HFF.  It'd go a long way to lowering the problems.  It's not really late game that's a concern.  By the time somthing hits your home system in the late game with enough firepower to be concerned you're probably dead.  It's early/midgame waves and raiders.

Or that, make it some sort of weird "mega-multi coverage exo-shield" type thing.

3) I know it's not true but it feels like the blessed thing has as many HPs as a FF I.

Actually, except for radius and ship cap, they ARE FF Is in stats. Thanks to their radius of a Mk. II, but the Hp of a Mk. I, this makes them MORE fragile than Mk. I forcefields, albeit it does cover more.

Kind of feels like a ripoff (and nearly, but not quite, an insult) when you consider that the AI, for their initial FF over their home, is a Mk. V in name AND in stats.

[keith.lamothe]

As far as the design goal, the sole reason we switched from starting everyone with a mkI FF to the current situation is that we wanted to increase the radius so the then-new extra starting stuff around the station would all fit.

[doctorfrog]

I voted earlier about this thing, and I might be backpedaling a bit.

So what if it's weak? The rapidity with which the thing goes down makes the Home OCS feel more like the set of butterfly wings that it should be.

If anything, color the damned thing so that it looks weak. Make the halo look faintly pink-red at the edges, like it is sick and drained. Alter the flavor text to make it clear that this is the last line of defense and it offers next to no advantage at all, and that you'll need more tentpoles to hold up your base.

If you must make up for the weakness, make it so that turrets firing from within it have no negatives. Or less of a negative. Or nothing.

Just offering a counterpoint.

[doctorfrog]

... and if I must offer an alternative, I'll try to be creative about it:

Replace the home force field type with a set of metallic brackets about the same radius as the original home FF. Start with a regular FFI. The brackets, which live within the shield radii, are destructible and not rebuildable. They enable any SINGLE FF built within the brackets to extend to the full radius described by the brackets.