Author Topic: About that AI Eye...  (Read 9212 times)

Offline Eternaly_Lost

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2012, 04:33:48 pm »
If they triggered a pulse every 60 (or maybe 90) seconds, you'd have a brief window to get your blob through the system without getting anything spawned.  That's if the initial pulse has to wait that delay as well.

For spawning, 30% seems more like the number I'd expect on a defensive AI like Turtle.  I don't think I'd ever want a higher spawn rate on anything.

My issues with AI eyes is that they are not spawning stuff until I get about half the guard posts down then it basically spawn city until they are dead. Well that is what the AI would want, at the same time it fells rather odd that you basicly have to go and pull ships out of the system to stop an endless steam of AI zombies as you are taking it.

I think if we could see pulses of AI ships rather then just 1 ship the instant (or it feels like it) that it triggers, might make them more fun.


Offline TechSY730

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2012, 05:00:07 pm »
I guess if we want to keep more or less the same mechanic as we have now, two things:

1. Figure out why some people are getting such high AI Eye spawn rates, and hopefully fix that and bump it down to something reasonable.
2. Switch from an instantaneous, "spawn as many ships as I need to meet my target ratio as soon as I can" system to a more "pulse" based system.



Not that extra fanciness can't be added (like adding some sort of wild-roll logic to the AI eyes when triggered, or more AI eye types), but the above 2 points seem like good, simple starting points.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2012, 05:13:57 pm »
I've never had any problems with AI Eyes. Usually I pop in and realize there is one I missed and pop back out, and there's just a few zombies spawn. Then again, I play in 7-8 diff.
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2012, 05:22:03 pm »
I think AI Eyes should get the "spawn raid starship bots elsewhere in the galaxy" mechanic.
The Evil Eye ;)
The LAZY Eye!
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2012, 05:31:47 pm »
I think AI Eyes should get the "spawn raid starship bots elsewhere in the galaxy" mechanic.
The Evil Eye ;)
The LAZY Eye!
No, that's the one that acts like a grav drill when triggered.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2012, 06:52:23 pm »
My issues with AI eyes is that they are not spawning stuff until I get about half the guard posts down then it basically spawn city until they are dead. Well that is what the AI would want, at the same time it fells rather odd that you basicly have to go and pull ships out of the system to stop an endless steam of AI zombies as you are taking it.
That's just because as you kill enemy ships, the number of ships needed to set them off gets lower.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #36 on: July 29, 2012, 03:27:01 am »
Since I'm playing at 7 usually I can normally take out the super-HP targets by throwing a whole cap of the highest mark of bombers I have available in there, since that's not even 100 ships it'll rarely go much over the eye's trigger level (in the past I was dealing with the rest of the system with caps of zenith and spire flagships, they were far more resilient than they may look on paper due to the neutron hulls). Still, it doesn't really feel like applying any tactics because sending only the bombers is already what I have to do when fortresses are in play (except then I send all the bombers and not just one mark).

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2012, 06:11:14 pm »
On the subject of how many eyes are seeded, I'm in that neighborhood of the code right now, so:

Code: [Select]
                int divisor = 80;

                #region AI Type Variables
                switch ( player.AIType )
                {
                    case AIType.ShieldNinny:
                    case AIType.GravDriller:
                    case AIType.Peacemaker:
                        divisor = 40;
                        break;
                    case AIType.Turtle:
                    case AIType.Teleporter_Turtle:
                    case AIType.Technologist_Turtle:
                        divisor = 30;
                        break;
                    case AIType.StarfleetCommander:
                    case AIType.SpeedRacer:
                        divisor = 100;
                        break;
                    case AIType.Mad_Bomber:
                    case AIType.NeinzulYoungster:
                    case AIType.Vicious_Raider:
                    case AIType.ExtremeRaider:
                    case AIType.Technologist_Raider:
                    case AIType.Scorched_Earth:
                    case AIType.Attritioner:
                    case AIType.The_Tank:
                    case AIType.The_Core:
                        divisor = 160;
                        break;
                }
                #endregion

                int remainingEyes = ( player.AIDifficulty * ( (FInt)totalPlanets / (FInt)divisor ) ).IntValue;
                if ( remainingEyes < 1 )
                    remainingEyes = 1;

In other words, on Vanilla AI on an 80 planet map, each AI player gets their difficulty number (rounded down) in AI Eyes.  So on Diff 10 that's 10 per player or 20 for the whole map; for a total of 25%.  On Diff 7 it's 14 for the whole map, or 17.5%

A couple other notes:
* As you can see, turtle types (which don't even launch waves) and 3 other AI types (one of which does not launch waves) get more eyes than others.  On diff 10 against 2 turtles you could be looking at 66% of planets with eyes... ow.  Big brother indeed.
* AI Players with diff < 6 skip normal eye seeding
* The AI homeworlds were made ineligible for this seeding step recently, but have a chance of spending 1 (not more than 1, nowadays) of their "brutal picks" on an eye.  So potentially there could be 2 more eyes on the map than the above math indicates, but that's in lieu of core raid engines and core CPA posts, so it's not without benefit ;)

Anyway, starting on the eye variations, and hopefully there'll be enough of that that cutting eye volume down won't be so important, but we'll see :)
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2012, 06:35:26 pm »
How about combining this with the idea of letting the AI move ships between worlds to defend certain targets (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7496)?  I could see the eye being something that links into the "high level network" and lets other local AIs know about your attack.  That would make it something you could potentially use to your advantage when you want to raid an adjacent world but keep the same essential challenge for attacking AI eye worlds.

I really like this idea.

Combine that with the varying Eye types (earlier in the thread) and you'd have some really interesting opportunities.

Think the "lazy eye" (Grav Drill when blob) + "move ships into system" and you end up with a very nasty Web Trap.  Blob enters system...but it can't leave (quickly).

I'd also tweak the "blob detection" math so that it isn't based on the AI's current presence (that is, you bring a blob in, nothing happens, you kill a guard post and some ships, and suddenly the AI Eye starts vomiting units) but rather a lower threshold based off of some intended number of units.  That would make it so that the blob is detected instantly and it isn't a dynamic variable based on the currently alive ships (but rather based on how many ships the AI had when you moved the fleet in, so that the AI Eye's response is constant).  Add a 1 minute delay (variable depending on Eye type, perhaps) before the first trigger (and also possibly "pulse triggers" depending on effect) and voila: it's more consistent, but also deadlier and each one is different (rather than a grinding slog of roadblocks).

The way I see it going down is you move a fleet into system, the resident Eye announces that a blob has been detected ("High level threat warning: Leave system in 60 seconds or face repercussions" or similar).  After 1 minute (or whatever interval), if the blob is still...a blob, activate the Eye's ability (Grav Drill, EMP burst, Ion Cannons, etc.) and start calling in reinforcements from elsewhere in the galaxy.*

If the player's fleet drops below "blob" level at any time during the count down, nothing happens, the timer still ticks and the check is still made at the 1 minute mark.  The Eye then remains in "hair trigger" mode for another minute (identical time to it's count-down, if not 1 minute, or some multiple thereof) that if a blob is detected, the Eye immediately goes off (if the "cooldown" is reached, then it goes back to the passive state).

Pulse-effects (such as the EMP) would return to "just detected" state after each pulse, effectively resetting the countdown timer.

*This is important, as it allows the player to use the Eye as a distraction, making it a double-edged sword.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 06:41:35 pm by Draco18s »

Offline Wanderer

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2012, 07:06:06 pm »
Out of curiousity, am I the only person (at least that's posting) that feels that AI Eyes should only get involved during the ATTACK of a system?  As it stands now it's a massive speedbump even if you wanted nothing to do with that system.
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Offline Draco18s

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2012, 07:23:56 pm »
Out of curiousity, am I the only person (at least that's posting) that feels that AI Eyes should only get involved during the ATTACK of a system?  As it stands now it's a massive speedbump even if you wanted nothing to do with that system.

Oh no, I agree with you.  If there was a delay on its activation, it would allow you to bypass the system (albeit in probably smaller chunks) without engaging it or worrying (too much) about triggering it.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2012, 07:25:39 pm »
Out of curiousity, am I the only person (at least that's posting) that feels that AI Eyes should only get involved during the ATTACK of a system?  As it stands now it's a massive speedbump even if you wanted nothing to do with that system.

The problem is that how can the AI tell the difference.
The two best ways I can think of (short of implementing telepathy) are makin it pulse based rather than always instantaneous (suggested multiple times on this thread) or by tying some of its activation to overtly offensive actions (like attacking guard posts, command stations, and possibly warp gates) in addition to some form of blob detection.

Offline Martyn van Buren

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2012, 01:07:28 am »
Would it do any harm if the eye didn't count ships in stand-down mode?  I'm having a hard time seeing a serious exploit from that.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2012, 01:10:01 am »
Would it do any harm if the eye didn't count ships in stand-down mode?  I'm having a hard time seeing a serious exploit from that.

I can think of several.

I'll post them tomorrow when I don't have to type on my phone.

Offline _K_

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Re: About that AI Eye...
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2012, 08:18:49 am »
Out of curiousity, am I the only person (at least that's posting) that feels that AI Eyes should only get involved during the ATTACK of a system?

Probably.
The whole "Dont mind my 1300 ships, they arent here to attack, they are just passing through to attack that other system" thing doesnt sound natural.

You probably just played too much 10/10's and started thinking this sort of movement is fine.

Personally, i never had too much trouble with AI eyes.
If there are 800+ enemy ships, aggro them all with the main fleet, then bait them into fighting on your territory.
Once the number of ships is low, send in the raids SS. For Spire Shield posts, grab a part of my fleet small enough to not trigger the eye, and kill the post.

Actually, dealing with AI eyes is where focusing on starships gives a noticeable advantage, as each starship still counts as just one ship.


I think the main problem with Eyes is that they are made to discourage using the fleetball, so the players have to...what?
There arent many alternatives to fleetball when it comes to attacking a system. Right now the only other solid option is using Raid SS. Cloakers are usually too weak on their own to take down guard posts.