About that AI Eye...

[MaxAstro]

My 2 cents: AI Eyes (I actually like the weirdly alliterative name ) are a fun mechanic.  Taking out a world with one is fun.  Taking out a second world with one is slightly less fun.  Taking out the fifth freaking planet in a row with one is not fun at all.

I wouldn't mind seeing them be even slightly harder to deal with (trigger if human ships > AI ships instead of > 2x?) but show up much less frequently.  I'd put them in the same niche as raid engines - something that doesn't show up often, but makes you totally re-evaluate your strategy when it does.

Because they DO force you to totally re-evaluate your strategy for a given planet, just like a raid engine, alarm post, or planet-cloaker does.

If they do reach raid engine rarity they need some kind of buff, though.

[zoutzakje]

I really like the idea of making several (or a lot of) different Eyes. It adds variety to the eyes, so the spawn rate can stay the same in my opinion.
here's another one in case this approach will be used:

Translocator Eye
kind of explains itself really. When blobbing, the eye will translocate the excessive player ships, or a certain % of your total ship amount present (mk Eye * % for example) to a random spot on that planet every 5-10 seconds or so.

[kasnavada]

I kinda made suggestions around there :

http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,11194.msg112594.html#msg112594

Mostly, giving variety in eyes, much like proposed above.

Other ideas, which aim to enables the player to attack as he wishes (therefore reducing "roadblock effect" but the threat of the eye remains.
- Carrier eye : every AI ships that dies on this planet goes to the eye, the eye releases them when destroyed and / or when 500 of them are in it.
- Parasite eye : every player ships that dies on this planet goes to the eye, the eye releases them when destroyed and / or when 500 of them are in it.

Numbers remain indicative =).

[unclean]

Alternate Eye Effects:

Regenerator Eye: Works like a Regenerator Golem, but only starts regenerating ships when a blob is present.

Parasite Botnet Eye: Very long range reclaimation attacks made only when blob is detected.

I think AI Eyes based on golems like this would be pretty cool, like they're some preliminary attempt by the AI at reverse engineering. A black widow one would work too, and might give tractor immune stuff some more use.

I wonder if non combat Eyes would work? Like one that unlocks new ship types a few minutes after a blob is detected, or adds temporary AIP or something.

[rchaneberg]

How about combining this with the idea of letting the AI move ships between worlds to defend certain targets (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7496)?  I could see the eye being something that links into the "high level network" and lets other local AIs know about your attack.  That would make it something you could potentially use to your advantage when you want to raid an adjacent world but keep the same essential challenge for attacking AI eye worlds.

I really like this, adds a bit of a time limit if you want to deal with the system with a blob anyway as the AI's forces congregate, but at the same time it adds the upside of being able to redistribute the AI's forces if you can deal with the reaction.  It also makes guerrilla raiding more attractive if you want to avoid the retaliation.

In short,
1.  I like the spawning mechanic, but I would like for there to be at least slightly fewer Eyes.
2.  In addition to the spawning I think that they should pull ships off of AI systems when the spawning conditions are met, Sort of an unannounced CPA targeted on the raids location. Whether from free threat or special forces, or even normal system defenders I don't know.

+1 for a few new types as well I especially like those above ^

[Nodor]

I'm feeling evil.

I think AI Eyes should get the "spawn raid starship bots elsewhere in the galaxy" mechanic.

AKA, take your fleet elsewhere. 

[keith.lamothe]

I think AI Eyes should get the "spawn raid starship bots elsewhere in the galaxy" mechanic.

The Evil Eye

[Hearteater]

Very Evil Eye: Trigger by a blob in its system, or any adjacent system.

[keith.lamothe]

Very Evil Eye: Trigger by a blob in its system, or any adjacent system.

Nah, that would be a !!RAID!! Engine

[Hearteater]

Now we know how Raid Engines were invented.

[keith.lamothe]

Now we know how Raid Engines were invented.

No, I'm sure that tale is far more horrible.

[Toranth]

This.  In my last game, 80 worlds, 18 had AI Eyes on them.  That's a pretty common ratio - somewhere around 1/4 of worlds seem to have them.  That's one heck of a lot of speedbumps.  And as Wanderer said, a Mk IV world with a Spire Shield post and Stealth Guardposts?  That's no longer a speedbump, that's a flat-out roadblock.

Really, as a nerf, I'd just be happy if the number of Eyes was reduced.

I don't see a problem with AI eye's and spire shields, provided both have sensible spawn rates, and that both seeding processes are independent (aka, the presence of a spire shield guard post neither boosts nor diminishes the chance of an AI eye spawning on that planet as well, and vice versa). We can stack ludicrous defensive solutions on one planet, so why can't the AI.

On the numbers thing, what AI types were you playing against? Some AI types get a bonus to the number of eyes they get. If both AIs were high difficulty turtles (turtles having the highest boost in AI spawn rate), I could see the expected AI eye rate hitting 1/4.

Do you have a save game and/or game setup to produce such a map?

Here's two games - I restarted two games from my archives, used the cheat to reveal everything, then counted the AI Eyes.

Game 1 - 8/8, Camouflager, Neinzul Youngster.  100 stars, 15 AI Eyes.
Game 2 - 8/8, Peacemaker, Everything.  100 stars, 30 AI Eyes.

From the Wiki, it looks like Camouflager is a defenseive type, while Neinzul Youngster is offensive.  The Peacemaker and Everything should be neutral.

Either way, 15% of the galaxy was full of speedbumps in one game, and 30% of the galaxy in the other game. 
Examples of some of those 30 systems?  Try:
4 systems with Counter III and Spire Shield III,
1 system with Counter IV and Spire Shield IV,
4 systems with either a Counter (III, IV) or a Spire Shield (III, IV),
A Core world with a 2! Spire Shield Vs,
A Homeworld with Core Spire Shield and Core Neinzul Spawner.


That's a LOT of grind - and while the Homeworld shouldn't count (it IS a Homeworld, after all), I included it to show how difficult it can be to handle the AI Eye sometimes.
And no, I never finished either of those games - looking at game #2, I'm glad I didn't.

[TechSY730]

Either way, 15% of the galaxy was full of speedbumps in one game, and 30% of the galaxy in the other game.

Hmm, while we will need some more samples to be sure, it does seem like there is something making AI eye spawn rate higher than intended.

Examples of some of those 30 systems?  Try:
4 systems with Counter III and Spire Shield III,
1 system with Counter IV and Spire Shield IV,
4 systems with either a Counter (III, IV) or a Spire Shield (III, IV),
A Core world with a 2! Spire Shield Vs,
A Homeworld with Core Spire Shield and Core Neinzul Spawner.


That's a LOT of grind - and while the Homeworld shouldn't count (it IS a Homeworld, after all), I included it to show how difficult it can be to handle the AI Eye sometimes.
And no, I never finished either of those games - looking at game #2, I'm glad I didn't.

These don't seem as bad, as the numbers don't look too out of line when you consider spawn rates multiplied with each other (especially when you consider this is a 100 planet map)
Still, perhaps "grindy" guard posts could receive a slight nerf in chance to spawn (aka, make the chance of a Spire Shield guard post or a counter-wave guard post a little less than the chance of some other type of guard post), but it shouldn't be a huge nerf in rate.

[Wanderer]

I'm not against trying to figure out how to make AI Eyes more fun.  Cool, awesome, etc etc.

As mentioned above, they CAN be fun the first or second time you have to fight with them.

Now, even on simple maps you end up with chokes.  Tree, X, Spokes, etc are worse for it.  You WILL need to remove an eye simply because you want to move troops, not because you even wanted to fight that system.  The case here could be made for transports to avoid the associated issues that Eyes perform, but those can be costly and power hungry.

They become excessively grindy when all you want to do is drive PAST them.  Counterstrike, Spireshield, and SF Posts make it worse.  Counterstrike IVs can actually end your game when trying to simply get your highway not to kill you.

Perhaps a simple tweak could be fired up for this?  AI Eyes won't fire until you've attacked a guardpost or gotten within X distance of the command center while a blob is on the planet?  This keeps them as defensive structures but at least allows you to do some guardian removal (a bane of raider fleets) and pound FF and Forts down if necessary, but also allows you to simply 'drive through'?

[Hearteater]

If they triggered a pulse every 60 (or maybe 90) seconds, you'd have a brief window to get your blob through the system without getting anything spawned.  That's if the initial pulse has to wait that delay as well.

For spawning, 30% seems more like the number I'd expect on a defensive AI like Turtle.  I don't think I'd ever want a higher spawn rate on anything.