About that AI Eye...

[keith.lamothe]

So, the AI Eye won the AI side of the nerf poll.  The understanding I had heard from players and taken for granted (not having triggered one of these recently enough to remember) was that the mark of the spawned stuff was the AI's wave mark + 1 or the mark of the planet, whichever was higher.  One proposed nerf was to just go with wave mark + 1 and leave off the part about the planet level (except for homeworlds and maybe core worlds) and that's what I'd planned to do.

Except that, now that I'm looking at it in the code and in testing, it's already just wave mark + 1 and that's it

So, what should happen here?  I've been considering an altnernate spawning mechanic for the AI Eye that's more like the raid engine (in that it has a charge time, but unlike in that it's more defensive in orientation), but here I'm mainly asking in the context of the existing mechanic.

[TechSY730]

How about making it spawn the Mk. of the planet or wave Mk. + 1, whichever is lower. Or possibly make it always be just the wave mark (without considering the planet's mark).

Again, except for homeworlds (and maybe coreworlds), though possibly a clone of that unit type with a modified name (like a AI Core Eye or something), with the modified spawn mechanics (spawn the Mk. of the planet) and an updated description reflecting that.

[Varone]

Why not have the enemy spawn just like it does with hacking, instead of a fast stream of ships from the eye itself.
You could have a 10 second cooldown between spawns but each consecutive spawn gets much larger .

It's a nerf initially because if you accidently trigger it by blind walking into a planet then the initial spawn isn't that bad but if you stay it gets worse.

[Cinth]

I have a few AI Eyes I can check that for ya... One is on a Mk III planet and on a Mk IV planet.  AIP is 15 atm

Edit: Took mah force to the MK IV world with the Eye and it spawns Mk III zombies. SS from the beginning of the melee.

Now to reload the save 

[Wanderer]

I personally voted for the nerf to it because from what I've seen so far, it does somehow use planet mark.  Then again, I don't often go charging into MK IV planets to really test that out, considering the minimum an Eye will spawn for my usual game is MK III.

Personally I'd like to see it at Mark instead of MK + 1.  In particular in the early game it can make getting through MK III/IV worlds incredibly difficult.  I've had a few games where you end up locked behind a MK IV world with an Eye and spend an hour or two trying to whittle the mountain down.

The eye is just brutal in general.  It requires alternate fleets and raiding parties to take it down, SF Posts costing additional AIP just so you can traverse the planet (not take it, simply highway), and if combined with a spire shield guardpost and/or forts (or 10) becomes the equivalent of trying to sandpaper your way through the universe because of spawn volume.  As it stands most reasonable fleets will not be able to stand against an Eye while you 'take care of something' in the system.  In my mind, that's what it should be doing, forcing you to slow your advance to deal with the output of it and allow you to deal with, at most, one other target in the system.  Right now it's you vs. the Eye, and that's usually it.

I may just be looking at the purpose of the design mechanic wrong.

[TechSY730]

Personally I'd like to see it at Mark instead of MK + 1

Is that planet Mk, or current wave Mk?

[Cinth]

Looks like wave Mk + 1

I'm guessing that since 10/10 starts at tech II for the AI, all the Eyes spawn are III and up.

[keith.lamothe]

I may just be looking at the purpose of the design mechanic wrong.

The purpose is solely to make it so "gather the blob and attack" doesn't work everywhere.

[Wanderer]

I may just be looking at the purpose of the design mechanic wrong.

The purpose is solely to make it so "gather the blob and attack" doesn't work everywhere.

AH!

Ummm...

Hrmmm.... well, it DOES do that rather well...

I wonder if a different approach could be arranged.  Sometimes you just want to travel, and the Eyes are cutoffs from the blob even doing that.  I... ummm... hrm... Get back to you on that train of thought.

[keith.lamothe]

Perhaps I should just go ahead and look at an alternate mechanic; for the eye and the deepstrike stuff at the same time while I'm at it.  In general the whole "spawn endless stream of single fleet ships until the player gives up trying to play that way" approach, while effective, seems to not win any "fun challenge" contests

One idea, as came up around the time as the eye originally did, is having the existing eye be one kind, and have other eye types use different mechanics, but all be triggered in roughly the same way: blob detection.

[Hearteater]

1) Spawn at Mark level Min(Planet, Wave).  Core Eyes should spawn Mark Vs.

2) Give the Eye longer spacing between pulses (1-2 minutes maybe), but larger blocks of ships.  This feels a lot more meaningful to a player and is less subtle.  It also gives meaningful short windows for quick attacks.

3) Remove the EMP immunity.  If we want to pay AIP to clear it out (since we already can with a nuke), that seems fair to me.  While EMP'd, it doesn't spawn anything.

4) Rename the AI Eye to Sentry Eye, Monitor Eye, or something Eye.  AI Eye is awkward and confusing.  Players have nothing called an Eye, so if AI Eye means an Eye owned by the AI, it is redundant.  If its name is actually AI Eye, then it's the AI's AI Eye, which is silly.  And then there is the pronouncation: A Eye Eye.  So odd.  Ok, maybe I'm a little OCD about its name.  But putting something else in front leaves room for new versions of the Eye that do other things like maybe: Guardian Eye (spawns Guardians instead), Shielding Eye (just like a basic Eye with much less health and makes all Guard Posts invulnerable until destroyed), or whatever.

Bonus) To get the same effect as the Eye, but in a different way, consider this suggestion.

EDIT:

One idea, as came up around the time as the eye originally did, is having the existing eye be one kind, and have other eye types use different mechanics, but all be triggered in roughly the same way: blob detection.

I like this

[Hearteater]

Alternate Eye Effects:

Spire Eye: Has 4x Ion Cannon Vs that only start firing when a blob is detected.

Pulsing Eye: Lets off an 8 second EMP burst every 40 seconds while a blob is detected, affects player units only.

Regenerator Eye: Works like a Regenerator Golem, but only starts regenerating ships when a blob is present.

Tachyon Eye: Full system Tachyon reveal all the time, 4x OMDs that only start firing when a blob is detected.

Parasite Eye: Very long range reclaimation attacks made only when blob is detected.

Targeting Eye: When a blob is detected, 250% damage boost to all AI ships in the system.

[Toranth]

The eye is just brutal in general.  It requires alternate fleets and raiding parties to take it down, SF Posts costing additional AIP just so you can traverse the planet (not take it, simply highway), and if combined with a spire shield guardpost and/or forts (or 10) becomes the equivalent of trying to sandpaper your way through the universe because of spawn volume.

This.  In my last game, 80 worlds, 18 had AI Eyes on them.  That's a pretty common ratio - somewhere around 1/4 of worlds seem to have them.  That's one heck of a lot of speedbumps.  And as Wanderer said, a Mk IV world with a Spire Shield post and Stealth Guardposts?  That's no longer a speedbump, that's a flat-out roadblock.

Really, as a nerf, I'd just be happy if the number of Eyes was reduced.

One idea, as came up around the time as the eye originally did, is having the existing eye be one kind, and have other eye types use different mechanics, but all be triggered in roughly the same way: blob detection.

That could be interesting.  Seeing as it is an "Eye" and attracting attention is bad, maybe one that is +1 AIP/min as long as you outnumber the AI?  Or, as an alternate trigger condition, have more than X ships/Firepower (varies by Mark of the Eye)?
More variety is always good, and less grindy solutions are always appreciated!

[TechSY730]

This.  In my last game, 80 worlds, 18 had AI Eyes on them.  That's a pretty common ratio - somewhere around 1/4 of worlds seem to have them.  That's one heck of a lot of speedbumps.  And as Wanderer said, a Mk IV world with a Spire Shield post and Stealth Guardposts?  That's no longer a speedbump, that's a flat-out roadblock.

Really, as a nerf, I'd just be happy if the number of Eyes was reduced.

I don't see a problem with AI eye's and spire shields, provided both have sensible spawn rates, and that both seeding processes are independent (aka, the presence of a spire shield guard post neither boosts nor diminishes the chance of an AI eye spawning on that planet as well, and vice versa). We can stack ludicrous defensive solutions on one planet, so why can't the AI.

On the numbers thing, what AI types were you playing against? Some AI types get a bonus to the number of eyes they get. If both AIs were high difficulty turtles (turtles having the highest boost in AI spawn rate), I could see the expected AI eye rate hitting 1/4.

Do you have a save game and/or game setup to produce such a map?

[Martyn van Buren]

How about combining this with the idea of letting the AI move ships between worlds to defend certain targets (http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=7496)?  I could see the eye being something that links into the "high level network" and lets other local AIs know about your attack.  That would make it something you could potentially use to your advantage when you want to raid an adjacent world but keep the same essential challenge for attacking AI eye worlds.