Spire Archives Uses

[PokerChen]

In my play-throughs, I'm inclined to think that benefits of taking over these archives are mostly mitigated by their location next to the AI homeworld. The only time one would clearly take it is when he has enough forces to take on the core planets, which usually means that I already have most of the knowledge I need, and want to take down both AIs so as to finish.
Waiting an extra 100 minutes for the archives at that point doesn't quite make sense: either I take over the homeworld (and possibly all the other core worlds too...) and live with increased AI progress while I prepare for the second AI, or neuter it and allow for the buildup. Even then, I could just go and take other worlds without aggravating the core worlds. So there isn't a strong benefit.

Are these intended as a bonus for players who don't/can't quickly leapfrog between the AI core worlds? Has anyone else thought differently and found them more useful?
= = =

1) Allowe Spire Archives to be placed anywhere, and cut its knowledge cap?
2) Increase its placement area to encompass both core worlds and worlds adjacent to core worlds?

[zoutzakje]

well, so far I've only found one use for them. I never take both homeworlds at about the same time, I always take one first (the toughest) then move to the other. In the occasion the toughest homeworld has a core world with a Spire Archive, then I can use the extra knowledge while I'm working my way to the second homeworld. I often have to neuter some stuff, deal with waves (CPA's always enjoy spawning right in the middle of my endgame), etc, so there is quite some time between first and second homeworld kill.
But you're absolutely right, I'm not going to put a homeworld on alert on purpose, just for the extra knowledge. By the time I'm strong enough to deal with a core world, I already have pretty much all the knowledge I need.

[TechSY730]

Because they only spawn on AI core worlds, this means there is no way short of a Warp jammer command station to prevent waves coming there. AI homeworlds have an exo-wormhole which not only acts as a full warp gate, but is also invulnerable.

I'd say lessen the amount of AIP on loss a bit (+80 seems like a bit much, +50 maybe?) and maybe increase the rate of knowledge gain (I think it is 1/s right now, maybe bump it to 2/s?), and then I would be willing to take a chance on them. As it is right now, the risk of losing it and the resources I would have to dedicate to it until it is done to defend it makes it way too risky IMO.

[Nalgas]

I have never, in any game I've played, on any map I can remember, ever run into a situation where I thought it was remotely a good idea to take and use a Spire Archive.  In fact, I don't think I've even seen one where I didn't think it was the worst possible thing I could do on the entire map, other than colonizing one of the planets with one of those stupid things that give you like 3 resources with a 100 AIP cost if the AI destroys it.  I just consider it a giant "don't touch this planet" sign.  Not that I would touch it anyway, because I'd be too busy winning the game at that point.

[TechSY730]

The deeper problem is that any sort of reward for killing or even getting close to an AI homeworld is rather worthless, as by that point in the game, you don't need any more rewards, for two reasons. One, you are already very strong; you don't need anymore rewards. Two, in many cases the game will be over rather quickly by that point, so trying to incorporate more rewards into your efforts would slow you down by that point.

I think a good way to solve this is to allow 1 maybe 2 additional to be spawned away from the homeworlds, maybe reducing knowledge gained per archive if you are worried about too much knowledge available. Two, reduce the time cost and penalty for losing them by a decent amount.

[Nalgas]

The deeper problem is that any sort of reward for killing or even getting close to an AI homeworld is rather worthless, as by that point in the game, you don't need any more rewards, for two reasons. One, you are already very strong; you don't need anymore rewards. Two, in many cases the game will be over rather quickly by that point, so trying to incorporate more rewards into your efforts would slow you down by that point.

Pretty much.  By the time you can even go there you don't need what you can get from there, and because of where it is, what you can get from there is extraordinarily not worth the rather terrifying risk.  Even if you capture it after taking the first homeworld, who wants to waste their time guarding the stupid thing forever when you could just go win the game instead?

They'd be more compelling if they didn't have quite so much of a penalty associated with them and they were available somewhere that didn't automatically stamp a giant, red "NO" over them.  If they're meant to be restricted to the latter part of the game, use the shard-seeding logic from the FS campaign and have them be x number of jumps away from the homeworlds or something.  Probably would make sense to have x scale with the map size and use something like x±1 for the sake of variety/not being able to predict exactly where they'll be, but you get the idea.

[chemical_art]

There are several key problems:

1. In order to need it, you need knowledge to get more firepower
2. The only reason to need knowledge at that point is because the homeworld is too well defended
3. To use that knowledge, you need that homeworld to be on alert for at least 30 minutes (I guess)

Now...how many people think 9k knowledge is worth 30 minutes of the homeworld being alerted?

Now let's add in
1. The HW is on alert permanently
2. There is a lefty AP cost if structure is lost, even after the knowledge is aquired
3. The structure is always vulnerable to waves, even if homeworld is defeated

...Now how many want it? Judging by this thread, none. I'm also among those who consider it a big no no to pick it up.


So what can salvage it? (Pick and choose)
1. (Best solution I think) Make it like a ARS...you also get an bonus unlock. Let you get MK III's instead of II's maybe too.
2. Structure self destructs without AP cost after knowledge recovered
3.  AIP cost is reduced
4. (This is really crazy) It also acts as a jammer

[Hearteater]

I like option #2 from the OP: just make it adjacent to core world instead of a home world.

[PokerChen]

I've taken a spire archive once before and moved all of my science labs over to get it to 3000 quicker (the archive is effectively the crappiest science lab if you didn't max planet knowledge first). This was in the context of "I've killed one AI now and will imminently assault the second." I actually went to the trouble of neutering other connected core worlds afterwards just in case (it was relatively easy since the galaxy spawned 4 artillery golems on my behalf).

By the end of the game, the archives gathered for me ~3000 extra knowledge. It was only convenient because I have a colonised beeline from my frontiers to this AI homeworld - ARS planet, super terminal planet, spire archive.

5) I think an even crazier solution would be to add to the archive's ability either a mark V fabricator for a Spire ship-type, or spawn some spire ships like the Zenith boxes. It's not very imaginative though...

[zoutzakje]

I believe a great way to solve the spire archive problem is to have it spawn like the AI Superterminal: doesn't have to be seeded in every map, can only be one of it in a galaxy (at a random location), and have it spawn enemy ships over time (of course not being able to 'capture' the Spire Archive, so the enemy ships can't destroy it). If the enemy ships (which will get stronger and larger in number / mark over time) are starting to overwhelm you, you can destroy it and get a small AIP increase (10-20 or so). If you manage to hold out until the Archive gets exhausted, it will self-destruct without an AIP increase.
This would make Spire Archives both interesting and useful.

[Lemon]

I was thinking about this today. Its really sad that this is so completely useless, as 3k of knowledge is just nothing once you can take AI core worlds as you can much more easily knowledge raid for no AI Progress increase.

How about taking a page from The Light of the Spire Campaign and make holding it a gambit that requires you to hold out against massive forces in exchange for a huge power?

Spawn the Archive next to a Core World instead of next to the AI Homeworld. Capturing the Archive temporarily raises the knowledge cap on ALL planets by 3000, but restricts the maximum knowledge gain rate on each planet to 5/s (forcing you to decentralize your gathering to multiple planets). For EVERY science lab in the universe, the AI spawns constant waves of enemy units from the nearest warp gate to go after that system as it does when you are retrieving a shard in LotS (actual wave sizes subject to balancing concerns of course). For the Archive itself, the AI Homeworld spawns its own waves every few minutes which constantly increase in power. Keep the AI progress for losing the Archive.

The end result is that we create another "path" through the game, where the player uses Spire technology to supercharge their own efforts instead of bringing in the Spire itself. If the player can hold out long enough against a massive attack on many of their planets at once, they can quickly unlock most of the tech in the game. If the player plays too conservatively with placing Science Labs to avoid the possibility of getting overrun, the quick escalation of waves from the AI Homeworld will kill off the Archive before much knowledge is gained and the player is stuck with the 80 AIP increase.

[Ranakastrasz]

@Lemon: I like that idea. It certainly seems more useful, and I actually think it might end up being used at some point in a serious game like that.
Limit ought to be 6, so it is easier to hit exactly.