A mistake and Ai stomping leads to an insteresting question...

[Akark]

So a little background. A pair of friends and I were playing a vanilla game (One of the players didn't have the expansions when we started the match) against two lvl 6 AIs (Sledgehammer and Spec Ops if it matters.) We were about 3 hours in, at 335 progress, and had secured our borders, a few adv research, and an adv factory. In preparation of making the system hops to kill the AI Homeworlds we decided to do a little research raiding. So we choose a MkI or MkII system we had recently neutered because of an AI Eye and began the raid. Everything went fine until the first MkIII science stations were built, and then within minutes all three of our fleets were wiped out. In retrospect we should have pulled out and scraped the science than lose our fleets, but we thought it was just a MkI/II world, and just didn't pay close attention. But instead we got swarmed by about 2700 MkIII threat. Several intense minutes and a nuke later we are secure again...barely.

But this leads me to my question. How exactly does the AI decide what to spawn during a research raid? I was under the impression that it was based on the level of the world itself, but that was certainly 2700+ MkIII ships that the AI was spawning in response to our sabotage. I couldn't find the answer to this on the wiki or forums (tho that doesn't mean it isn't there, just that my search-fu is not very strong), so I figured I could ask the community directly.

[x4000]

Welcome to the forums!

IIRC, for the science labs its actually 1 more than whatever it would normally be, as you noted.  The science raiding with mark III is really a very major event, and something only to do as a last resort -- it's much easier to take the planet, but then you get the AIP cost... so it's always a balance.  But the mark III science labs were basically put in as a way for players in a stalemate situation to break themselves out of the stalemate, and aren't something you want to use if things are going well unless they are going REALLY well.  And then why bother, naturally.

The other thing to note, as a corollary: the mark level of ships spawned at a planet in general is whichever is higher: the wave tech level of the AI in question, or the tech level of the planet.  So at AIP 335 it should still have been mark II at that planet on most difficulties.  But if your AIP is later high enough that waves are mark III... then expect to see only mark III and above reinforcements on all planets, too.

[Akark]

Welcome to the forums!

IIRC, for the science labs its actually 1 more than whatever it would normally be, as you noted.  The science raiding with mark III is really a very major event, and something only to do as a last resort -- it's much easier to take the planet, but then you get the AIP cost... so it's always a balance.  But the mark III science labs were basically put in as a way for players in a stalemate situation to break themselves out of the stalemate, and aren't something you want to use if things are going well unless they are going REALLY well.  And then why bother, naturally.

The other thing to note, as a corollary: the mark level of ships spawned at a planet in general is whichever is higher: the wave tech level of the AI in question, or the tech level of the planet.  So at AIP 335 it should still have been mark II at that planet on most difficulties.  But if your AIP is later high enough that waves are mark III... then expect to see only mark III and above reinforcements on all planets, too.

Thank you! I've been playing since almost release, I just don't post of forums very often.

So what you are saying is you don't need MkIII science ships to do the research raid? I thought it was changed at some point so that only the MkIII ones could actually gather research in an AI controlled system? But yes, things were going extremely well until the AI punished us for our folly. In retrospect, the AI has shield bearers, and we probably should never have attempted the raid without any of our own. But the AI was most certainly sending MkIII ships at us. Screenshots provided, right after our AI induced beat-down (I know they are not exactly proof, but they might help anyways.)

[x4000]

Always nice to meet a lurker!   Have been one myself on other forums many times.

In terms of the research raids, really the change was intended to mostly eliminate research raids -- such that you'd do one research raid per game max most of the time, and in most games none at all.  A research raid was really very powerful, letting you sidestep AIP in exchange for a huge benefit.  The net effect was to destroy the difficulty curve of the game in exchange for a time grind for those players who were willing to put up with doing lots of knowledge raids.

Knowledge raiding was originally intended to be something that could break stalemates, as kind of a last-ditch thing when you really can't take any more planets but you also need knowledge, and the introduction of those new mark III lab mechanics pretty well relegated knowledge raiding to that function again.  There's some pretty detailed forum posts around here somewhere on the subject, if you want the long version from last fall.


In terms of the mark III ships, like I was saying above I think for the science labs its actually spawning AI ships that are 1 more than whatever it would normally be.  So since it would normally be mark II on that planet, as you say, then it's mark III instead.

[Nalgas]

In terms of the mark III ships, like I was saying above I think for the science labs its actually spawning AI ships that are 1 more than whatever it would normally be.  So since it would normally be mark II on that planet, as you say, then it's mark III instead.

Just like this says, from what I've seen, generally things that spawn ships in response to you making the AI cranky do it at one level above normal.  AI Eyes work the same way.  I learned not to underestimate them just as quickly as you seem to have.  I'm more afraid of knowledge raids than exowaves these days after the first and only time I tried to do one in the current version.  Heh.

[Cyborg]

Just a little note about how to optimize this. Duck and cover.

At advanced difficulties, it may be advantageous to you to conduct your knowledge raiding earlier in the game after first researching forcefields, fighters, and riots. Use your engineers to juggle multiple forcefields on top of a wormhole, with your riot starships keeping the lesser forces at bay. Taking on a mark 2 really isn't that hard earlier in the game, so get the knowledge from those planets that are not worth the AI progress increase as soon as you can. Knowledge is the ultimate currency in the game; it controls your build capacity as well as your technology superiority. Can't see any crappy planets nearby? Use scouts and then send a transport. As an added suggestion, shield bearers or long-range bombardment ship work great for this strategy.

Plan on shortages! Get the raiding done early.

One more edit: don't bother researching riots past the early game unless you are playing the spire campaign or have some specific strategy. Their utility value is really situational, and they cannot carry a game like the bomber and raid starships can.

[Haagenti]

Everything went fine until the first MkIII science station*s* were built, and then within minutes all three of our fleets were wiped out.

If you build two stations at the same time, the AI spawns two streams. Same for 3, 4...n. So you may want to consider having only one station at the same time. And if you do that, research raiding is still easy in the mid and late game.

Having the expansions is a huge help...since the spawned ships all move in a straight line towards you, a fleet of Spire FFs/DDs and Mercenary Zenith Beam Frigates make short work of them. Lacking that, putting a bunch of tractor turrets under a few forcefields and using long-range weapons will also kill them with low losses.

[Nalgas]

If you build two stations at the same time, the AI spawns two streams. Same for 3, 4...n. So you may want to consider having only one station at the same time. And if you do that, research raiding is still easy in the mid and late game.

Ah, so.  That would explain a lot.  The one time I tried was in a multiplayer game with five of us each making half a dozen of them trying to get the knowledge and get out of there as quickly as possible, because that was the most effective way to do it in earlier versions.  It got really ugly really quickly, which is not at all surprising if that's how it works.  Heh.

[Akark]

Thank you for our responses, everyone! It is greatly appreciated.

It is good to know that our experience was at least the game working as designed. Makes things very interesting indeed, mostly because now I'll have to be much more tactical on what I choose to research.

[x4000]

Makes things very interesting indeed, mostly because now I'll have to be much more tactical on what I choose to research.

That's the idea!