7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.

[chemical_art]

And it may be sufficient, we'll see; I'm not on a nerfhammer campaign so much as not wanting to let things slide further towards a point where 7.6 is where something like 5 should be.

I may have said this before, but if make it so that ultra aip games are "soft countered" enough, and the outlier of extreme K costs are addressed, then we can both reduce the scaling of AIP correspondingly with player K, so that way players cannot win without taking planets, but AIP doesn't scale so viciously.

This would create more dynamic then the current meta of "1 planet to rule them all"

[kasnavada]

But it does seem that player buffs have outpaced AI buffs in the 7-through-7.6 range.  The ARS-giving-IIs thing is just the part that sticks out as most obvious to start correcting that.  And it may be sufficient, we'll see; I'm not on a nerfhammer campaign so much as not wanting to let things slide further towards a point where 7.6 is where something like 5 should be.

At low AIP, yes. At "higher" AIP, errrrr... no. The changes just made might have helped though, I need to give this a try too when I got some time.

On another note, hasn't the AIP reducer gone better during those years ? I don't remember being able to reduce the AIP by 160 when I played version 4...something, but since it was kinda long ago I'm not so sure. Anyway, reducing the reduction might also help.

Currently, as far as I can tell, low AIP games have fairly constant AIP whatever the difficulty is, about 50-60 until first AI assault, 150 when first AI dead, 250 when second AI dead, mostly because of changes with the lazy thingy. Did it stayed below 100 even at diff 9-10 before the lazy setting ?

What if the "minimum balanced" AIP targets was set to be around 150 when assaulting the first AI, 250, when first AI dead and 350 when second AI dead ? It would smooth the rise of AIP which would be a boon to higher AIP games. Since AIP is higher, the waves and so would be higher making low AIP games more difficult. I do not know about how exactly the AIP influence AI strength, but getting from 250 to 270 looks less intimidating than going from 150-170. So settling a new system should be more interesting.

It could be done in different ways, like destroying a station might give the same boost to AIP floor than AIP, remove the AIP reducers altogether, making the AIP reducer dependant on the number of planets freed from the AI (like 1 points / planet freed, rationale being that it forgot it was its planets in the first place), lower the AIP bonus from any by (15-diff level)% per data center killed (kinda the same as the idea above, but favors early kills while the idea above favor late kills), give AIP to CSG... dunno, maybe other ideas come to mind.

[keith.lamothe]

At low AIP, yes. At "higher" AIP, errrrr... no.

Well, in my two recent 7ish games I've been downright careless about AIP (playing much of it around 300) and it's just not hard.  There was the one time I forgot an avenger, and that was... interesting.  But considering I still won, despite that going heavily pear-shaped while in the neighborhood of 300 AIP, it seemed pretty tame.  And I'm not actually all that good at the game.

[TechSY730]

At low AIP, yes. At "higher" AIP, errrrr... no.

Well, in my two recent 7ish games I've been downright careless about AIP (playing much of it around 300) and it's just not hard.  There was the one time I forgot an avenger, and that was... interesting.  But considering I still won, despite that going heavily pear-shaped while in the neighborhood of 300 AIP, it seemed pretty tame.  And I'm not actually all that good at the game.

So, potentially, AI difficulty is playing too much of a factor in AI strength? (aka, 7 is too easy, but 9 is too hard/restrictive, aka, the "slope" is too great between these difficulties)

[Zeyurn]

Honestly my first thought on starting this thread out was:  Of course you can win without using knowledge as long as you're willing to wait for Mercenaries.

I'd say they're the bigger threat to game balance by skilled players than ARSes giving mk 2 ships.

Mercenary Parasites and Beam Frigates are just amazing.

But I imagine somebody playing careful could win even without that if they're slow and especially with superweapons.

[keith.lamothe]

So, potentially, AI difficulty is playing too much of a factor in AI strength? (aka, 7 is too easy, but 9 is too hard/restrictive, aka, the "slope" is too great between these difficulties)

Oh, I don't think 9 is too hard, for what 9 is supposed to be.  And I think there's a point on the spectrum for everyone.  I just think 7 is too easy, and since it's a reference point instead of just-another-difficulty-level I don't want to let it just keep sliding that way.  I'm not wanting to make it hard, but right now it seems it can be won just fine while playing relatively carelessly.

[keith.lamothe]

Honestly my first thought on starting this thread out was:  Of course you can win without using knowledge as long as you're willing to wait for Mercenaries.

I'd say they're the bigger threat to game balance by skilled players than ARSes giving mk 2 ships.

Mercenary Parasites and Beam Frigates are just amazing.

But I imagine somebody playing careful could win even without that if they're slow and especially with superweapons.

I'm not worried about cases of a specific easily identifiable cheese (Mercenaries, in that case).  Either the cheese can be ignored and the cheesemaster patted on the head, or the cheese can be nerfed.

What I'm seeing is broader than that.

[Zeyurn]

There may be problems at lower than 8, I haven't played below that except in the game we did for you in years and it did seem pretty dang easy for what you guys intend.  10 is still brutal though, I'm quite happy to say

But I'm always still surprised Mercs continue to exist

That said, if you do get rid of the ARSes granting Mk 2 ships please make fleet ship research less expensive somehow, because even though I like the new Starships it will just continue to swing research balance in their favor (especially Leeches).

[LaughingThesaurus]

Again I kinda want to chime in and say that it'd be nice to have an easier setting that allows the AI to pull all of its tricks, yet isn't too dreadfully hard in terms of numbers and so forth. I don't want deliberately dumb AI, or I wouldn't have gotten AI War to begin with. So, I can't just lower the difficulty. Keeping the smarter AI is why I keep away from lower difficulties now. Now, maybe that shouldn't be difficulty 7. Maybe the AI can pull all of its tricks sooner, and a lower setting can be the 'old 7' while this 7 is moved further up to a more appropriate balance point. That lets players like me still fight smart AIs.

[Radiant Phoenix]

Again I kinda want to chime in and say that it'd be nice to have an easier setting that allows the AI to pull all of its tricks, yet isn't too dreadfully hard in terms of numbers and so forth. I don't want deliberately dumb AI, or I wouldn't have gotten AI War to begin with. So, I can't just lower the difficulty. Keeping the smarter AI is why I keep away from lower difficulties now. Now, maybe that shouldn't be difficulty 7. Maybe the AI can pull all of its tricks sooner, and a lower setting can be the 'old 7' while this 7 is moved further up to a more appropriate balance point. That lets players like me still fight smart AIs.

Have you tried -X% handicap on the AI?

[keith.lamothe]

Again I kinda want to chime in and say that it'd be nice to have an easier setting that allows the AI to pull all of its tricks, yet isn't too dreadfully hard in terms of numbers and so forth. I don't want deliberately dumb AI, or I wouldn't have gotten AI War to begin with. So, I can't just lower the difficulty. Keeping the smarter AI is why I keep away from lower difficulties now. Now, maybe that shouldn't be difficulty 7. Maybe the AI can pull all of its tricks sooner, and a lower setting can be the 'old 7' while this 7 is moved further up to a more appropriate balance point. That lets players like me still fight smart AIs.

I am keeping your situation in mind.  Two thoughts, though:

1) If it's actually too hard on 7, I suggest asking some questions in the strategy forum (or main forum, we won't mind).  Because I'm not actually that good at this game, and I'm running roughshod over 7 without really trying.  I have to go totally moronic for it to seriously threaten me, even if I'm playing with no chokepoint at all and so on.  That doesn't say much about me, but rather about that difficulty level.  All that to say you can probably beat it just fine, but there's a few pieces missing in your understanding that some folks around here could set right.

2) If the above doesn't help, just crank up your handicap and/or crank down the AI's handicap.  No need to change the difficulty setting.  There are also other ways to make the game easier (via minor factions, or the half waves toggle, etc) but that actually changes the "flavor" of the game at the same time which may not be what you want.

[LaughingThesaurus]

Yeah, silly me totally forgot about the handicap.
That might well be enough really, depending on what I actually need. I mean I had a really serious problem with the nemesis ships before, because they'd come without warning. Waves are pretty darn trivial because I know where they'll be and all that. Setting up some kind of all-encompassing defense for enemies that can attack anywhere at any time and can't be tractored is just like, beyond me early game. I think any failed 7/7 game really was a result of me just blowing up something I shouldn't have, or foolishly turning on champions or something. I seem to remember getting mauled by like 4 raider guardians mark IV because I had the gall to send a transport full of scouts through a mark IV world. That was kind of hilarious, though.
I just haven't really had the time to get into a game of AI War lately and figure out what really is my problem in more of a base game sense. Crazy stuff, transitioning to another school (hopefully), and multiple concerts next week, and a play to go see, and finals week coming up, and all that.
I did think about the ARS mark II ship stuff. The bonus knowledge instead of mark II does sound perfectly reasonable, since ARSs have always made my game significantly easier. Like, it goes from dodgy to really comfortable in no time flat because of how big that bonus actually is. I don't know what other specific changes were discussed, but I'll spend some time working on getting better when I have the chance. No need to really hold the game's reference point back for that.

[keith.lamothe]

Oh, if you have a champion, yea, that's gonna make things more interesting due to the nemesis stuff   If you just played vanilla you'd probably do just fine.  As you say the waves are pretty tame.

[LaughingThesaurus]

I mean, the standard response is seeing 200 ships and going "Yeah, I'm going to just leave 96 of the ship that counters it and then just go attack something else." Nemeses ruin my day. I think the answer there is more turrets. Nothing wrong with more turrets.

[TechSY730]

If it is only around difficulty 7 or so, isn't that a sign that the various per difficulty multipliers (wave and defense ones in particular) need some adjusting, instead of some grand new set of mechanics?

Not that the other things (ARS, knowledge costs, turret and starship balancing, etc) don't need work, but those sorts of things, like multiplier adjustments, aren't really going to change the "feel" of this game (which is a good thing)


Also, I guess it would be nice to make it clear in game that you can adjust how much the AI gets without adjusting how smart it is using handicaps.