Author Topic: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.  (Read 33762 times)

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2013, 12:58:33 pm »
I think the idea is that if it is currently checked, it will become unchecked, and visa-versa.
I believe I understand that part.  What I'm saying is that every other item in that part of the lobby defaults to unchecked, so this one should too.  Since I want "non Lazy" to be the default, that means making "non Lazy" = unchecked, which means making checked = "Lazy".

New thread to find a better name then?

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2013, 01:01:22 pm »
New thread to find a better name then?
If you like :)  The name it currently has was picked from 4 or 5 player suggestions in the thread which spawned the toggle, iirc.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2013, 01:51:33 pm »
I'm so-so on the name.  I just can't think of anything better personally :) .

Offline Faulty Logic

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,194
  • Bane of the AI
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2013, 01:54:44 pm »
Indifferent, or Arrogant would be better, IMO.
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline Hearteater

  • Core Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,334
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2013, 01:59:18 pm »
I think the issue is the Lazy toggle is Disabling part of the AIs homeworld defenses, and Lazy doesn't convey that to me.  Sadly, Indifferent and Arrogant don't either.  Limited maybe, or Limited Defense.

Offline kasnavada

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 986
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2013, 02:07:35 pm »
I do not think the research stations are the balance problem for this.

I could have done this (more slowly for sure) with caps of level 1. I did not even use the hacker station to choose what ship to use.

IMO, the problem is that I'm completely unopposed until the AIP reaches 140 or so. Waves, reinforcements and default garrison is pathetic and weak until then.

Which has sort of been touched on in other threads, and what the "lazy AI" off was supposed to help address if you can stay very low AIP to the late game, but then have a much harder "wall" if you do this as the AI won't skimp on HW defense even at low AIP with this option.

Considering that you were able to out produce the non-lazy strategic reserve with almost no knowledge and only Mk I and II fleetships and Mk. I starships, it may be that strategic reserves need a buff.

That said, I still do think that the AI's "base strength" could go up some in return for its growth over AIP going down a bit.

Something is wrong here, I did not out-produce the strategic reserves, never needed to. I beat the AI by ignoring the reserves. You can see that clearly in the last saves, just launch an assault on the world neighboring the 2nd AI. They are at 70%.

Quote
Which neinzul ship were you using?

I unlocked tigers and commandos mk1 & mk2 and with the ARS.

Quote
Looking at the saves, he had lazy off AND CSGs on.  They're somewhat redundant (I'm happy to accept a non-Lazy game as valid for balance feedback even with CSGs off)

I do not agree with this. CSG leaves you no choice, you have to take useless worlds, even worlds dangerous to clean-up, worlds that cannot easily be defended. Lazy gives you so much AIP floor that you can conquer the universe with it, and take mostly the better locations.

This makes a huge difference because there is only 5 warp station. There is no way you can defend all worlds taken with the CSG on with 5 warp station, whereas you can with the Lazy option.


On the "balance" note:
I  don't know if what I've done here is doable at higher diff level, given some things to neuter Exos (including, not using golems / spirecraft). What is the growth in reinforcements between diff 7 and 8 ? Twice as numerous ? The ressources needed to build stuff are really on the low side. Given a 10 or 13k limit however, it should be doable, yet I don't think the same "blocks" would happen. In my opinion, a cap of lvl 1 and 2 ships in a transport are enough to do enough damage to a core guard post so it does not regen completely before being able to repeat the operation on an unalerted homeworld, and fast enough to attack before getting caught up by the AI strategic reserves.

Spirecrafts, overall, are kind of weak. I built up some siege tower, but the devourer found them when I was otherwise occupied. About the exo waves / reinforcements, the bombers, spire starships, flagship and neinzul starship were the ones my troops were taking ages to kill. Of course, golems too.

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2013, 02:16:18 pm »
Wait, how did you bypass the strategic reserve?

Were you able to inflict enough lasting damage before the reserve took you down?

Did they fail to spawn on the AI homeworld when they were at 70% due to your "attack" on the core world?

Did the strategic reserve simply ignore your stuff?

Was the strategic reserve too easily "baitible" within a planet, letting your real force to do damage while the strategic reserve is far away due to your bait?

Did the strategic reserve react slowly enough that you had ample time to do something (pulling back, inflict enough damage to last for the next cycle, whatever)?
(BTW, based on my expeience, the answer to this question is probably yes (on average, each ship in the strategic reserve takes a long time from spawning to actually going out and doing stuff))

Am I asking too many questions in one post?  :P

P.S. I am unable to load up the saves at this time, so I can't really go check for myself what happens.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 02:20:24 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2013, 02:26:58 pm »
I think the issue is the Lazy toggle is Disabling part of the AIs homeworld defenses, and Lazy doesn't convey that to me.  Sadly, Indifferent and Arrogant don't either.  Limited maybe, or Limited Defense.
Careless?
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline PokerChen

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,088
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2013, 02:35:03 pm »
Obsoleted.

"The AI has moved on to bigger and better galaxies, and has become less concerned with its initial territory, and the pitiful creatures that spawned them."

Offline orzelek

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,096
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2013, 02:35:10 pm »
I would propose "No active defense" since it seems to be important that off state is more difficult one.

Offline Wingflier

  • Core Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,753
  • To add me on Steam, click the little Steam icon ^
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2013, 03:06:05 pm »
The past few patches have been a continual set of nerfs to the AI that I don't think were warranted or necessary.

People keep playing on difficulties higher than they should be, then complaining that they can't win. We keep nerfing the game until this kind of thing is possible.

Unless people are losing on 1/1, I'm not sure why we constantly need to keep nerfing the AI.
"Inner peace is the void of expectation. It is the absence of our shared desperation to feel a certain way."

Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2013, 03:26:49 pm »
The past few patches have been a continual set of nerfs to the AI that I don't think were warranted or necessary.

People keep playing on difficulties higher than they should be, then complaining that they can't win. We keep nerfing the game until this kind of thing is possible.

Unless people are losing on 1/1, I'm not sure why we constantly need to keep nerfing the AI.

Except, none of the AI nerfs over the last few patches would of affected this playthrough. Either they were for AIPs higher than he got, or for difficulties > or >= 8.

Offline Faulty Logic

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,194
  • Bane of the AI
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2013, 03:29:06 pm »
Could you elaborate, Wingflier?

The AI got its lazy toggle, including counterattacks.
It got CPAs/Exos buffed, then nerfed (but still a net buff between the two).

The starship changes definitely help the humans, but we're discussing how to nerf them right now.
And some rarely-used human unlocks got a buff.

I hardly think that constitutes "a continual set of nerfs to the AI"

As to diff-10 balance, the goal is "barely impossible." And the mechanics should still be balanced relative to each other.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 03:32:06 pm by Faulty Logic »
If warheads can't solve it, use more warheads.

Offline kasnavada

  • Hero Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 986
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2013, 03:30:11 pm »
Were you able to inflict enough lasting damage before the reserve took you down?
Basically, yes. Routine is: have the ships run though the lvl4 world next to the AI homeworld, then rush the post guard, die, wait for the reserve to unspawn (a few minutes) and repeat. It takes 1-3 runs to take out undefended posts, a few dozen runs to clear core shields.

Basically, after a few trips, most of what was not reserve has been "aggroed" and becomes threat. Since there is a world between the homeworld and the player's world, they go there, I wipe them out, and since the homeworld is barely alerted, it never gets significant reinforcements. Problem becomes how to repawn your troops fast enough. I used neinzuls, but I could have just waited to amass enough ressources to launch a few runs and done so with missiles and bombers. It would have taken a LOT more time though.

Making their spawn longer is not a solution, it's pretty easy to set up decoys (a few transports / ships), then going in with the ships / a transport with the ships to take down a guard post. Or, just target another guard post can do the trick. Or get in the homeworld via another wormhole.


Offline TechSY730

  • Core Member Mark V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,570
Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2013, 03:39:09 pm »
Were you able to inflict enough lasting damage before the reserve took you down?
Basically, yes. Routine is: have the ships run though the lvl4 world next to the AI homeworld, then rush the post guard, die, wait for the reserve to unspawn (a few minutes) and repeat. It takes 1-3 runs to take out undefended posts, a few dozen runs to clear core shields.

Basically, after a few trips, most of what was not reserve has been "aggroed" and becomes threat. Since there is a world between the homeworld and the player's world, they go there, I wipe them out, and since the homeworld is barely alerted, it never gets significant reinforcements. Problem becomes how to repawn your troops fast enough. I used neinzuls, but I could have just waited to amass enough ressources to launch a few runs and done so with missiles and bombers. It would have taken a LOT more time though.

Making their spawn longer is not a solution, it's pretty easy to set up decoys (a few transports / ships), then going in with the ships / a transport with the ships to take down a guard post. Or, just target another guard post can do the trick. Or get in the homeworld via another wormhole.

So, from what I am getting:
1. AI reinforcements, especially homeworlds, are a bit too low at AIP 10
2. AI defenders are a bit too easy to aggro into threat (which I have long complained about how defenders always are freed once provoked, even when defending something important or near something important, or just a tiny thing aggroed it that they really shouldn't care about beyond killing it. It seems like in some cases, only some ships should go out to chase, if any, depending on how severe the threat they just encountered was)
3. AI stuff tends to not regen fast enough, especially core guard posts
4. AI ships are too easy to "bait" within a planet, especially if they are free threat, special forces, or strategic reserve (the first two, I could maybe see, but the last one the AI needs to be good about not falling for silly tricks)
5. Strategic reserve response times (from spawn to move out to attack) are a bit too long
6. Player build times for units may (and that is a big may) be a bit too short overall for fleet ships
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 03:46:05 pm by TechSY730 »