7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.

[kasnavada]

Remember, any comparisions to CSG's is a no go, since anyone who uses low aip games didn't use
10,000 k is nowhere near enough to win.

You see, since we cannot agree on that, everything else is mot.

10k is plenty.

@chemical_art, are you saying that you can win a game with only spending 10,000 K (or maybe 13,000 K due to the HW's contribution)?  Even with non-lazy AI?

Even on Diff 7 I'd consider that alarming.  On 8+ I'd consider that a major balance problem.

Edit: wait, now your post says 100k.  Which I would agree is plenty, but Faulty was talking about 10k.  <developer-confused>

Done it, beaten with diff 7, the "low AIP route" all the way.
Options : Spire hard 4. Botnet 4, devourer.

Saves attached.

I did some save scumming because of the EXOs, yet I unlocked only the scout II.

Strategy used, nothing too fancy :
- rush advanced research station.
- scout / neuter as much as possible up to 3 system away from colonized systems / reduce AIP with the CP and DC.
- regroup some stuff wo you do not die against exos.
- take some more planets (core shield)
- take out the first AI.
- reinforcements start to become annoying, you have to intensify clean-up so you can still pass from system to system (scout 2 was taken because it was necessary to see what happend to be able to do the clean-up properly).
- take the last research station which I completely forgot about
- take out the second AI.

I did most clean-up / assault with the both neinzul unlocks, because ressources are expensive with no ressource unlock, leaving the rest of the fleet to defense / reclamation duty. I took a few more planets than the minimum required because the AIP floor was way higher than the current AIP. So, 2 AIP to take a planet ? Yeah.

If people are interested for the AAR to be a bit more complete, no problem... but since it's 2:20 AM here, that's gonna wait until at least tomorrow night...

Again, the only trouble I had was with the Exos, the spire ships are kinda weak against them. Yet, the penetrators are awesome, it certainly sped up the destruction of both AI once I remembered they existed. Also, the counter wave for each Core guard destruction is a real pain in the ***.

[Mánagarmr]

Keeeeeiiiiiiith! Balance problem!

[TechSY730]

Did you play with Lazy AI on or off?

If off, how did you get past the (supposed to be) sizable strategic reserves?


And you had to both save scum and do very "micro-ish", "grindy" stuff (reinforcment killing passes, large amounts of nuetering), so I don't see how this would be a balance problem if you had to do this much work for it on difficulty 7.

[keith.lamothe]

You won on 7/7 while spending only 500 knowledge (on scouts).  This is absurd

I had a non-superweapon game in mind when I said that, doing it with them isn't very alarming though still somewhat surprising

An impressive win, given the fairly harsh restrictions.

I'm wondering if the ARS's granting both mkI and mkII is too nice.  Though they were not well favored back when they only gave the mkI. Maybe they could just give you an extra 1000 K on-capture or something like that.

But my guess is that this would be trickier without superweapons (though the exos certainly go a long way to making that legit).

[keith.lamothe]

Did you play with Lazy AI on or off?

Looking at the saves, he had lazy off AND CSGs on.  They're somewhat redundant (I'm happy to accept a non-Lazy game as valid for balance feedback even with CSGs off) but he definitely wasn't cutting corners there.

If off, how did you get past the (supposed to be) sizable strategic reserves?

Superweapons, I'm thinking.

[TechSY730]

I'm wondering if the ARS's granting both mkI and mkII is too nice.  Though they were not well favored back when they only gave the mkI. Maybe they could just give you an extra 1000 K on-capture or something like that.

I never really minded them giving only mark I WAY back in the day.

Anyways, giving some extra K beyond what you would of gotten from the planet anyways, but less than the cost of a Mk. II fleetship unlock may be a worthwhile nerf.
Though, some people may, well, not kill you, but at least yell at you some, for nerfing something so deeply ingrained in the "metagame" by this point.

[keith.lamothe]

Though, some people may, well, not kill you, but at least yell at you some, for nerfing something so deeply ingrained in the "metagame" by this point.

That's what I'm here for!  (whether I mean "being yelled at" and/or "changing deeply-ingrained stuff" I will deliberately leave ambiguous)

[Aklyon]

Though, some people may, well, not kill you, but at least yell at you some, for nerfing something so deeply ingrained in the "metagame" by this point.

That's what I'm here for!  (whether I mean "being yelled at" and/or "changing deeply-ingrained stuff" I will deliberately leave ambiguous)

Are you sure its not both?

[Oralordos]

Though, some people may, well, not kill you, but at least yell at you some, for nerfing something so deeply ingrained in the "metagame" by this point.

That's what I'm here for!  (whether I mean "being yelled at" and/or "changing deeply-ingrained stuff" I will deliberately leave ambiguous)

Are you sure its not both?

There is doubt?


I vote for not automatically getting mark II and giving a small amount of free K.

[Faulty Logic]

I really like getting mkII. It lets you see if the ship will be useful to you or not. You could have the ARS planets produce less k to compensate (the data being in the ARS).

[Hearteater]

I'm totally ok with ARS not giving Mark IIs, especially if the Mark III cost comes down as was discussed in another thread elsewhere.  I don't really even need anything to compensate beyond that.  Actually, yeah, one thing.  Can we get the resource multipliers for higher marks (III+) looked at?  They are just too high for fleet ships.  Starships they are fine.

One of the reasons is because I kind of view the bonus ship I select as a major component to a game.  That's what I'm planning to use to win.  But when I get an ARS I get Mark II free and that quickly makes those ships that randomly show up much more prominent since often I haven't unlocked Mark II of my starting ship.  A silly reason maybe, but I always feel my starter bonus ship gets the short end of the stick.

[TechSY730]

Yea, I'm not sure if this proof of concept really should prompt any change. You said you would be shocked if someone did it on 7/7, but didn't outright say it would be a balance problem unless it happened on at least 8/8, presumably without golems or botnet too.

[TechSY730]

I'm totally ok with ARS not giving Mark IIs, especially if the Mark III cost comes down as was discussed in another thread elsewhere.  I don't really even need anything to compensate beyond that.  Actually, yeah, one thing.  Can we get the resource multipliers for higher marks (III+) looked at?  They are just too high for fleet ships.  Starships they are fine.

One of the reasons is because I kind of view the bonus ship I select as a major component to a game.  That's what I'm planning to use to win.  But when I get an ARS I get Mark II free and that quickly makes those ships that randomly show up much more prominent since often I haven't unlocked Mark II of my starting ship.  A silly reason maybe, but I always feel my starter bonus ship gets the short end of the stick.

I mentioned this on the other thread, but here is my idea:

Mark	Stat multiplier	Current Resource Multiplier (2*(mk-1) past Mk. I)	Proposed Resource Multiplier (1.5*(mk-1) past Mk. II)
1	1x	1x	1x
2	2x	2x	2x
3	3x	4x	3x
4	4x	6x	4.5x
5	5x	8x	6x

Whether this should be for all linearized stat over mark buildables or only fleet ships and turrets and below I don't know yet.

PS. Thank you Free BBCode Table Generator Tool

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, I'm not sure if this proof of concept really should prompt any change. You said you would be shocked if someone did it on 7/7, but didn't outright say it would be a balance problem unless it happened on at least 8/8, presumably without golems or botnet too.

Well, I said winning 7/7 (non-lazy) with only spending 13,000 K would be alarming.

Winning 7/7 with only spending 500 K (and that on non-military) ... I did not expect to see that.  But given the superweapons it's not like this one data point screams for change.

The ARS thing is more of a "I've long wondered" question, brought into sharp relief when I realized what percent % of this win's non-superweapon firepower came directly from ARS's.

[keith.lamothe]

PS. Thank you Free BBCode Table Generator Tool

Bah, just copy from spreadsheet and regex-replace

Code: [Select]

"^"=>"[tr][td]"
"$"=>"[/td][/tr]"
"\t"=>"[/td][td]"
then add the table tags to either side, done