Author Topic: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.  (Read 33455 times)

Offline chemical_art

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #105 on: April 27, 2013, 02:28:07 pm »


So an AI version of a Riot III?

Yes.

But remember that AI crowd control means "removing the crowd" altogether.

I'm doing some more brainstorming, but I'm thinking of making a line of AI super guardians which are more stubborn in holding a planet and uses different build points then regular reinforcements. Another idea would be to bring up the old zenith starship of a mobile fort as well. Need more time to flush out the idea though.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #106 on: April 27, 2013, 02:29:50 pm »
"Dire Guardians" (or "Super Guardians" as we've discussed in the past) are something on the list for the next expansion.  They wouldn't all be defensive-only, but some could be.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #107 on: April 27, 2013, 02:37:06 pm »
"Dire Guardians" (or "Super Guardians" as we've discussed in the past) are something on the list for the next expansion.  They wouldn't all be defensive-only, but some could be.

Sounds cool!

The ship I was thinking of wouldn't have to be defensive only, but it would be very strong against a broad spectrum of mobile ships yet would be fairly useless against defenses.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #108 on: April 27, 2013, 02:40:22 pm »


So an AI version of a Riot III?

Yes.

But remember that AI crowd control means "removing the crowd" altogether.

I'm doing some more brainstorming, but I'm thinking of making a line of AI super guardians which are more stubborn in holding a planet and uses different build points then regular reinforcements. Another idea would be to bring up the old zenith starship of a mobile fort as well. Need more time to flush out the idea though.

If you amped up the damage of the Riot III you would have a threatening ship.  And with the way the AI tends to abuse ship numbers, it could pose a real threat to attackers :) 
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline Winge

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #109 on: April 27, 2013, 03:06:29 pm »
Human Rights starship
One of the more amusing typos of recent memory.

I was wondering if that ship name was a play on words, lol.
My other bonus ship is a TARDIS.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #110 on: April 27, 2013, 03:14:34 pm »
Human Rights starship
One of the more amusing typos of recent memory.

I was wondering if that ship name was a play on words, lol.

the typo was my phone thinking riot = right.

After the fact though, given the name of the ship and its intention, the wordplay was just to irresistible to replace.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #111 on: April 27, 2013, 03:16:50 pm »
The Basic Human Right to AI Ships That Do Not Move.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #112 on: April 27, 2013, 04:06:43 pm »
Why not also allow riot starships on the list of starship types the AI is allowed to use for waves and defense?


Yea, it wouldn't be enough by itself for late game situations, or to fully address the issue being discussed currently, but it could help.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #113 on: April 27, 2013, 04:09:13 pm »
A Riot in an offensive wave would probably be... less than impressive.  But yes, I've thought about adding them to the more general AI roster.  They already show up in exos from time to time.
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Offline Cinth

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #114 on: April 27, 2013, 04:10:54 pm »
Couldn't there be an AI version with buffed damage?
Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #115 on: April 27, 2013, 04:12:52 pm »
Couldn't there be an AI version with buffed damage?
That would mean new unit defs for the alternate version and all its modules, etc.  In other words, it sounds like work ;)

More seriously, if I were to go that route I may as well just make a new unit entirely, probably non-modular since that doesn't matter as much to the AI.
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Offline TechSY730

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #116 on: April 27, 2013, 04:13:38 pm »
Couldn't there be an AI version with buffed damage?

As much as I do dislike AI-human split units, there may be a case here due to the special utility nature of riots.

Maybe the AI version of the Riots and their modules could focus less on engine damage (and misc effects, like it would have a weaker tazer and a weaker gravity effect for the higher marks) and more on direct damage?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 04:28:17 pm by TechSY730 »

Offline Cinth

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #117 on: April 27, 2013, 04:25:36 pm »
It doesn't have to be called a Riot to function like one :)

Quote from: keith.lamothe
Opened your save. My computer wept. Switched to the ST planet and ship icons filled my screen, so I zoomed out. Game told me that it _was_ totally zoomed out. You could seriously walk from one end of the inner grav well to the other without getting your feet cold.

Offline kasnavada

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #118 on: April 28, 2013, 04:08:13 am »
At low AIP, yes. At "higher" AIP, errrrr... no.
Well, in my two recent 7ish games I've been downright careless about AIP (playing much of it around 300) and it's just not hard.  There was the one time I forgot an avenger, and that was... interesting.  But considering I still won, despite that going heavily pear-shaped while in the neighborhood of 300 AIP, it seemed pretty tame.  And I'm not actually all that good at the game.

Errr...  I'm not actually that good either, since I did not even notice than penetrators ignore shields. Yet, I did win this game. I was going for a win with 10K first, but I found it unecessary to unlock stuff. What I feel, however, is that I abused the AIP mechanic.

My opinion is that even with the proposed changes, and no superweapon, it's probably doable to win with ultra-minimal unlocks. The only "real" difficulties I encountered where the drone thingies (AI brutal pick), and the Exos. I don't remember killing more than one zenith reserve, getting all of them killed and setting them as a garrison in my homeworld would allow me to defend against the Core retaliation waves, with whatever ship I get with reclamation. With the ARS not unlocking lvl 2 ships, I would still need 4 caps of ships (out of 8) to kill guard posts. It would be slower, but the 4 other caps (+starships) would be enough to defend against waves and stuff while the "attack fleet" cleans the first homeworld. Second homeworld could be killed with the entire fleet.

That's why I'm insisting about reinforcements and AIP on top of this.

At 50 AIP and diff 7 the AI does nothing significant enough to pose any kind of threat. IMO, that's when the game is decided. AI worlds are guarded by guard posts and have at most 100 ships (my own fleet are in the 400-500s with a few ARS). Yet, with 50 AIP, a moderately experienced player is in position to take the first homeworld without alerting it, so the main challenge is the guard posts and not the AI response to your actions.

With an AIP to 150, the AIP spawns groups of 30-60 ships per reinforcement phase. With only level one caps, I'd need most of my fleet to clean a world, and it would be more difficult to use level 3 - 4 worlds as highways. Of course, you could also raise the AI response when 50 AIP is hit, but that would again reduce the "max AIP" before a game can be won... which I feel is low enough already.

That's why I would be advocating that the "lowest AIP possible" before getting a shot to destroy a homeworld should be 150, and not 50. First of all, because it would make the answer from the AI much more significant before I'm able to be a threat to the AI.

I think I'll try this kind of game (with no superweapons) later to check if I'm right.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: 7/7 game with next to no knowledge used... won.
« Reply #119 on: April 28, 2013, 04:24:49 am »
Yea, there still is a good chance that the various multipliers and such for the difficulties around and at 7 need some sort of increase as well.

That, and maybe a small-ish boost to the "reinforce the homeworld, even if it isn't alerted" chance, and a similar boost to chance for the core worlds as well.