Author Topic: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf  (Read 5358 times)

Offline Ragnarok

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« on: August 29, 2013, 02:51:33 pm »
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 02:58:29 pm by Ragnarok »

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2013, 03:02:02 pm »
Some of those icons might be stacks.  How many SSBs were there, actually?

If you're curious about how it came to that number (and whatever was in the CPA), there should be logs in RuntimeData if you have Advanced Logging on.  If you didn't, you could probably get something similar by turning it on and reloading a save from before the CPA launch :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Ragnarok

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2013, 03:08:39 pm »
I deleted all 3 saves when i quit the game and posted this thead. It was 102 Stealth Battleships.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2013, 03:09:48 pm »
Sounds like the SSBs accomplished their mission, then :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Cyborg

  • Master Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,957
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2013, 09:19:08 pm »
Some of those icons might be stacks.  How many SSBs were there, actually?

If you're curious about how it came to that number (and whatever was in the CPA), there should be logs in RuntimeData if you have Advanced Logging on.  If you didn't, you could probably get something similar by turning it on and reloading a save from before the CPA launch :)

How do you turn that on?
Kahuna strategy guide:
http://www.arcengames.com/forums/index.php/topic,13369.0.html

Suggestions, bugs? Don't be lazy, give back:
http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/

Planetcracker. Believe it.

The stigma of hunger. http://wayw.re/Vi12BK

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2013, 09:43:38 pm »
How do you turn that on?
There's an Advanced Logging toggle on the advanced tab of the settings window.  It logs a bunch of things to your RuntimeData/ directory (wave composition, exos, hacking responses, etc).  There's also one for reinforcements logging, but that can be a bit more of a system burden.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline ZaneWolfe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2013, 10:35:09 pm »
As far as I know, the game takes both AIP AND game duration in account when deciding what to throw at you in a CPA. Even if you keep the AIP low the fact that you're at 6 hours has a fairly large impact on the size of the CPA. As for the rage quit, why? If you had MKIII Military Stations then your HW should have no problem seeing those coming, and by 6 hours in you should have gotten them already. ESPECIALLY since you almost certainly knew the AI had SSBs unlocked. If they have serious stealth firepower like that you NEED to have serious tachyon coverage. If they snuck up on you then it is kinda your own fault.

A CPA comes with a LONG announcement timer. And in many cases you can even tell where it is going to come from. (Not all though, there are some maps where nothing you can do allows you to control the path of the AI.) Yes 102 SSBs is pretty nasty. But you should be able to easily see where they are coming from, and at the very least you KNOW where they are going to go. A MKIII Military Station unlock gives your HW full tachyon coverage. They cant hide then and you can meet them head on and tear them apart. Bring their direct hull counter (which escapes me at the moment. I don't remember what hull type they have) as well as some extra meat shields. The 2x attack bonus from the MKIII Mil will also go a LONG way to killing them faster. All in all, there are a LOT of ways to have overcome that attack, you did not need to rage quit and delete everything.

Offline Diazo

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,717
  • I love/hate Diff 10
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2013, 10:12:42 am »
Note that there is an AIP minimum for the CPA based on game time also.

I'll go try to find the post where it came up last time, but I suspect the effective AIP was actually higher.

The logic behind this being that if you are stuck in a stalemated game (so AIP is not increasing) where neither you or the AI can make progress, the CPAs still get larger and larger so eventually the AI will win.

D.

edit: Here are the calcs, but specific to this game would be (assuming gametime 6:00:00):
Code: [Select]
since diff > 7, numberOfSecondsPerPointOfMinimumAIPForCPAPurposes = 360 + ( (FInt)60 * ( (FInt)7 - this.AIDifficulty ) ).IntValue = 360

minimumAIPForCPAPurposes = Game.Instance.GameSecond / numberOfSecondsPerPointOfMinimumAIPForCPAPurposes = 60

effectiveAIPForCPAPurposes = Max(effectiveAIPForCPAPurposes,minimumAIPForCPAPurposes)  = 90

Huh.

Nevermind I guess. The CPA was an AIP 90 CPA it looks like. For the record a gametime of 9:00:00 would give you a CPA with an AIP of 90 using the CPA minimum on difficulty 7.

(This stuff would all show in the logging functions if you enable them.)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 10:20:45 am by Diazo »

Offline Ragnarok

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2013, 10:56:24 am »
I'm not stupid in that 100 SBS sneak up on me, i saw them coming 3 systems out. What i think however you dont realize is that 100 SBS is a really powerful force that soaks up lots of firepower and have an insane DPS.
To be honest, i have no clue why, at 6 hours in, the game, EVER would spawn them (+ the chaff that comes long). Makes perfectly no sense at the difficulty, gametime and AIP.

Offline Tridus

  • Master Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,305
  • I'm going to do what I do best: lecture her!
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2013, 12:59:59 pm »
I'm not stupid in that 100 SBS sneak up on me, i saw them coming 3 systems out. What i think however you dont realize is that 100 SBS is a really powerful force that soaks up lots of firepower and have an insane DPS.
To be honest, i have no clue why, at 6 hours in, the game, EVER would spawn them (+ the chaff that comes long). Makes perfectly no sense at the difficulty, gametime and AIP.

It's definitely a nasty exo! If you see something like that again where you're stuck, post a save for us. There's some experts here who can figure out how to beat stuff like that. :)

I'm not one of those experts, but I can offer a few extra tips:

1. SSBs are not mine immune (going by the wiki), so area mines. Put them in lines between the wormhole they're coming from and where they're likely to go (the command station or another wormhole are good ones). Military Command Stations (mk III in particular) will make the SSBs visible so the area mines can do their work, and they can really soften things up. There's a great guide in the strategy forum with screenshots and layout tips on how to set this up.

2. Gravity Turrets will slow them down, and are inexpensive. That gives more time for your turrets to do their thing and for your ships to respond. I don't think tractor turrets work on SSBs, but if they do drop a bunch under a forcefield or hardened forcefield and you can really wreck their day.


If you had them available, Protector Starships of course would have turned things in your favor. Although not quite as effective against SSBs as they are against stuff like Fortresses, they're still my favorite "counters everything" ship. :D (Specifically every anti-energy module would have taken two SSBs firepower out of the fight. So if you had up to mk III, that's 24 SSBs worth of offense nullified.)

Offline Diazo

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,717
  • I love/hate Diff 10
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2013, 02:34:18 pm »
Okay, so this is really a balance question and not a mechanics question.

(Pulling numbers from this post.)

A SpireStealthBattleship Mk I has a relative strength of 38.4

A fighter Mk I has a relative strength of 1.0

So, instead of 102 Stealth BBs, you could have been hit with 3917 fighters instead.

How many other units were there? I'm not sure that 4000 fighter strong CPA is out of line at the 6 hour mark.

Now, if 4000 fighters = 100 Steath BBs in terms of how dangerous they are is another question.

D.

Offline LordSloth

  • Sr. Member Mark III
  • ****
  • Posts: 430
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2013, 03:47:42 pm »
I had an incredibly long post with one critical flaw. So I'm wiping that out and coming up with a somewhat more coherent different set of suggestions that is only unreasonably long. All about second best solutions, if Mil Mark 3 isn't available. Note that I generally play on 7, and seize more territory than you would, looking at the AIP you mention. Note that the AI doesn't actually spawn these SSBs are part of the CPA, these are all pulled from existing units, possibly unlocked if your AIP hit certain thresholds.

  • Neinzul Enclave Starships are fantastic counters to SSB that are not going after a particular target (i.e. you engage them outside your territory). The drones soak their fire, counter stealth (by means of being a target), and keep most of the SSBs safely out of range by matter of being a target and in a fashion that doesn't clump them as badly into overlapping fields of fire. If you have some sort of repair on hand, then your starships can nibble down the ones at the edges. They also function nicely with a military command's knockback of course.
  • If you can keep them from clustering, Heavy Bomber Starships (and engineers or a Mobile Space Dock) do wonderfully at picking them off.
  • Plasma Siege Starships can get within 10,000 radar dampening range while staying outside the SSB gun's 7,000 range. If you have logistics command station or zenith spacetime manipulators, you can actually kite with a group consisting only of Missile Frigates (additional firepower), Riot Starships (engine damage to keep smaller fleetships off), and Plasma Siege Starships to take down the big guys.
  • Riot Starships do not FRD or auto-kite well due to the range on their main gun. They're still quite handy for a delaying and dividing the regular enemy fleets from the SSB without major casualties.
  • For reduced micro's sake, I would group my siege starships, neinzul enclave starships, riots starships, and missile frigates to one control group, group move, only engaging when advantageous. But I play a high AIP game with defense in depth, generally. I'd also throw in a few transports to use if the command station went down and I needed to fall back in a hurry.
  • I believe you can hit SSB with EMP warheads, but I'm confused on EMP mines.
  • Stealth Tachyon Turrets are unfortunately quite limited in number, but do have  a great detection range and only cost 1,500 + 250 Knowledge, compared to what you're spending on Military MK3s.
  • Just a few tractor turrets can hold down SSBs, but they won't live long when you're holding down thirty or so SSBs and not 30 or so fighters. You can still use them, but it'll take a greater investment of timing, defensive cap, planning, and perhaps AIP. Consider staggering the tractor turrets into several lines (the short range of tractors will be problematic), the idea being that you'll break up the overlapping fields of fire, instead of the usual goal of locking everything into your turret killzone.

Here's an example defensive line

Outlying non-choke systems have logistic command stations set as far away from the wormholes as possible, plenty of mines, mark 1 riot starships, sniper turrets to take on raid starships, and optional spider turrets, with tractor turrets deployed scarcely. These systems are primarily a trap designed to let Stealth Battleships through while you delay regular fleetships and kill some of the faster swarmers. You'll want to deploy a spare scout because these systems will go down, but as long as they buy time that's fine. You might even consider having the setup to deploy EMP warheads in a rush if the entire armada decides to come through here, as these systems are the ultimate in expendable. If you can get there in time with your fleet, all the better, but if not, anything that draws the enemy away from the wormholes and takes out munitions boosters/raid starships/explodes mines is a good deal.

 Your next ring of systems will consist of military commands if you can position them anywhere useful, logistics otherwise, while any MK2 military commands you may or may not have will be reserved for critical locations. Since the smaller ships have ideally been delayed, you'll set up with the explicit focus of tackling SSBs. Stealthed Tachyon Turrets and Tractor turrets will be key here to buying time if nothing else, but ideally you'd be able to do something with bombers or starships.  You want to engage here at least with your long-ranged units and drones.

At your actual chokepoints or key systems, Military Commands (MK2+ if you got em) with their knockback and Enclave Starships Neinzul Drones just generally acting as targets (decloaking and staggering the enemy line), with a Decloaker starship or some distraction to decloak them far enough out for drones to build up in levels. Try building your less important turrets -inside- the weapon range of the SSBs so they have something to fire at other than the tractor turrets.

For just a general sacrificial system, the line place tool is generally sufficient, but it gets a little complicated when high value targets and the exit are spread out in the system unless you have a feel for the AI's targeting behavior. I personally prefer the OCD beauty of a 3-5 deep hexagon of emp mines on top of a wormhole. A hex of EMP mines will hit the initial spiral outwards of an incoming wave while also letting tractors and other turrets engage immediately. There are superior layouts, but a 'cookie-cutter' approach is nice to have on hand for systems you don't really care about.

Balanced?
In the past I've had some minor discussions about switching CPAs away from a unit counter to say, a strength counter, but it ceased to be a key issue once the AI purchasing for reinforcements/patrols was adjusted. I still wouldn't mind a change... I'm just not motivated enough to try and make it an issue.

At the time a CPA is announced, it decides exactly how many units it is going to send, but not what type. The units are selected to turn to threat at the time the CPA timer hits zero, and are pulled from the strategic reserve and system defense, but not the patrol IIRC. Since it just cares about the total count, different cap units can have a devastatingly different impact. On the other hand, the AI still has to spend it's budget on these ships in the first case, so once the AI budget had 'layaway' implemented, that improved things to a dramatic extent.

Within the game mechanics, this CPA is entirely plausible from a technical perspective, and even from an RNG perspective. I do think it is exceedingly excessive for six hours in based on my own experience facing Stealth Master AI on seven. I don't remember seeing numbers this big during the first CPA since the reinforce mechanics changed, even with my own aggressive playstyle. Just for clarity's sake, you're running version 7.0 or greater? I suspect this is an rng outlier, but I'm merely speculating.

Anecdotally speaking,  that number surprises me, even coming from fighting a Stealth Master in a Fallen Spire situation. I've long wiped those saves though. I certainly saw more, and from a dedicated stealth master, but not as many if I simply multiplied your force there at ninety AIP the six or so times to reach my AIP at the end.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 03:53:56 pm by LordSloth »

Offline Bognor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 570
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2013, 09:38:01 pm »
Given that CPAs are based on ship number and not ship strength, I think one way you can prepare for them is by every once in a while purging any alerted worlds that reinforce with low cap ships.  When the CPA strikes you want the AI to have zillions of little swarmers it can deploy, but few SSBs.

I've been playing crosshatch lately so I've not yet had a chance to try this, but in principle it ought to be possible to manipulate the AI's fleet composition by deliberately alerting some unneutered worlds that reinforce with high cap ships, while neutering or de-alerting (with Warp Jammer Command Stations) worlds that reinforce with low cap ships.

If stealth is a problem, don't forget Mark II Scout Starships, a steal at only 250 knowledge.
Your computer can help defeat malaria!
Please visit the World Community Grid to find out how.

Offline Ragnarok

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2013, 06:17:46 am »
Where can you see which AI Types the AI used ?
I'm only see "AI Easier 7.6" in the references sheet.

Offline Diazo

  • Master Member Mark II
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,717
  • I love/hate Diff 10
Re: 7/7, 6 hours, 90 AI Progress and this CPA ? wtf
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2013, 08:30:09 am »
Wait? CPAs still use the flat ship count? I thought they used the Relative Strength like waves/etc. do?

On the AI type, if you select a Random AI in the lobby, you have to check the "Reveal Random AI Types" in the game lobby, it's on one of the options tabs, AI Options I think.

Otherwise the game does not actually tell you what AIs you are fighting until the game is over (win or lose) when the "AI Easier 7.6" text will change to "AI Type 7.6" in the references sheet.

D.