5.021 criticisms

[Wanderer]

"Hold slash and mouse over a button for more information"

Does nothing for optional orders for science vessels or scouts (all I've checked so far).

Is that new to this version?  Wow, it has been a while.  And yea, I think I saw that displaying in some weird places, so I may need to disable it.  Still, I think it's supposed to display the description for the button in a tooltip...

Well, it might be an artifact from an older one, but it's new to me....

[Cyborg]

Does anyone notice that double-clicking structures also highlights structures not yet completed?

[chemical_art]

FYI the size of wave one on 10/10 is almost identical to wave 2

[Wanderer]

FYI the size of wave one on 10/10 is almost identical to wave 2

It shouldn't be going up until you move the AIP though.  However, that TII is still too damn strong at 6:30.  I'm compiling a number of different strategies I've tried (and failed) with so far.

[chemical_art]

It is not terrible...just when I heard the cap was at 34ish...i expected a drop.

Still, gravity wells with shields plus a dozen basic, laser, and missile turrets plus sniper (for raiders) with MK I and II fighters works well enough.*

*low caps

[Wanderer]

It is not terrible...just when I heard the cap was at 34ish...i expected a drop.

Still, gravity wells with shields plus a dozen basic, laser, and missile turrets plus sniper (for raiders) with MK I and II fighters works well enough.*

*low caps

Lies.     Average wave for a pair of vanillas 10/10 (normal caps) is ~400 ships, Tech II, 10 AIP, at 6:30 into the game.  Sucking down the pair of asteroid econ boosts will barely give you a cap of TI ships (average about 400 ships).  The gravs are getting pounded too, very quickly.

Going full turret is roughly as pointless.  A (barely) full cap of LRM and Basic wasn't quick enough to stop a slaughter of the home station, even with sniper units (sniper ships are about 1/5 the price of turrets and 2x as strong).  I've tried a few different seeds now and it's really got nothing to do with composition, though a wave of fighters was the longest I held out (9:30).



Those cloaked ships were eyebots.  You don't want to know how badly they wrecked me with their 'small' fleet.

[chemical_art]

*scratches head*

maybe, then, the reduced wave effect works for more then one wave.

I'm running a 10/10 game right now. First wave sent 4 groups of 25. Second wave did similar.

Then again, I'm running the tank AI.

[Wanderer]

*scratches head*

maybe, then, the reduced wave effect works for more then one wave.

I'm running a 10/10 game right now. First wave sent 4 groups of 25. Second wave did similar.

Then again, I'm running the tank AI.

Tank is a 50% because of the unit strength, and you've halved again by using the 1/2 fleets option.  That's about right.

Stopping 8 Raid/Bomber starships plus the rest of the TII is getting to be nasty, particularly on simple maps when you're multi-wormholing.  I'm testing out an 8 HW single-access now.  I believe it's going to come down to econ.  With the stronger econ and the immediate homeworld buffs from the mining boosters, I can also bring in Tazer Riots.  I'm testing that now.   P.S.: Tazer Riots in single homeworld will wreck your econ badly enough that they're pretty much all you're bringing to the table before first wave.

[Wanderer]

Confirmed, the TII is more vicious then the old floor.  AI 9/9 you can stop early waves (old method, AIP equivalent of 90).  AI 10/10, even with floor 34, TII is nearly impossible to break with a normal waver.  Extra homeworld econ did not truly make a significant difference, nor did the Tazer ships.  Variety's too high and enough stuff is free long enough to break the tazer lock.

One of the things I could try is bringing more ffs online to protect the tazer lock, (3 FF1s to every Tazer Riot) but I'm not convinced it'll do enough.  I'm going to have to do more testing to figure out how to break a double vanilla AI 10/10 starter wave.  If I can figure out single planet I can then advance it to multi-homeworld.  The puzzle is still very punishing.

I'd almost rather see the old Floor with a TII AIP for the AI at 35.

[Hearteater]

I thought the 5.020 was already Tier 2 on the first wave on difficulty 10?  What has changed in regards to tiers?  I don't see anything in the notes.

[Wanderer]

I thought the 5.020 was already Tier 2 on the first wave on difficulty 10?  What has changed in regards to tiers?  I don't see anything in the notes.

Nothing changed.  I was comparing the relative ease of a T1 AI 9/9 with 90 AIP Floor from the .020 with the still TII AI 10/10 with 34 Floor in the .021.

[Hearteater]

Ah, ok.  It sounds like you aren't seeing much (if any) change in wave size at difficulty 10 in 5.021 compared to 5.020.

Actually, doing the math I get a worst case of 82.5 ships in a wave (assuming a ship type with a 1.0 ship cap multiplier).  However step 9 says for a single-type wave if it is below cap, it is raised to cap.  That would bump it up to I believe 98, which is an 18% increase in wave size .  I'm guessing that probably isn't intended.  Actually, I suspect step 9 only applies at difficulty 10, low AIP...aka, wave 1.  Which the current patch just tried to reduce in brutality.  This is because step 7 is x0.9 for Mark II, but x1.5 for Mark I.  So until the first wave is Mark II, that 1.5 multiplier is enough that step 9 never kicks in.

[Wanderer]

So until the first wave is Mark II, that 1.5 multiplier is enough that step 9 never kicks in.

At AI 10 the first wave is ALWAYS TII.  Heh.

[Wanderer]

You know, I just realized something.  Why am I getting four waves?  I'm only single homeworlded.  Whazzup with dat?

Edit: It's not limited to Vanilla.  Fortress Baron/Entrenched Homeworlder are pulling the same stunt.

[Wanderer]

Okay, something's definately goofy with AI10 vs. AI9.  Other than Tech Level, I wouldn't expect a lot of difference here, since they're both floored to 34 with a single homeworld and no actions taken by the player other than defensive building on the homeworld.  And yet, with the same seed/settings and the only difference being AI 9 vs. AI 10, I get this:



I can't find anything in the article on wave sizes that would explain this.
http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Why_Do_Enemy_Waves_Get_So_Large%3F#How_Wave_Sizes_Are_Calculated

AI 9 and 10 get the same multipliers under the floor.  Can someone help me make sense of this?

What I don't understand:
1) Why is buildup faster with the same floor on AI10 vs. AI9?  It's nearly consistently a 2 minute difference.  Yes, at this stage, 2 minutes is important. Answered my own question on this.  It's because of the 33.33x intead of the 22.5x multiplier due to level.  It's nearly 50% increase in rate of buildup, which would explain why the wave hits at ~8.25 minutes instead of ~10.5 minutes.  (6:45 + 1.5 minute warning vs. 8:30 + 2 minute warning).
2) Why is AI 10 double waving per AI?  If that's not a bug, please believe me when I say that the Tech II immediate boost is plenifully more difficult compared to AI9.