4 minute FS shard chase, 112 mk4 hybrids spawned - intended?

[Naz]

Are Fallen Spire chases supposed to also spawn high level hybrids?

Game setup:  8.3/8.3 Assassins, 80-planet X map, single homeworld + champion.
FS 5, hybrids & adv.hybrids 4 (both AIs), Zenith trader on.
All other plots/minor factions off.

About 25 minutes in, I complete my survey on the first remote signal planet(adjacent to my homeworld due to a blocking mk4 planet), spawning the shard and the chase strikeforces as normal.  At about 30 minutes, after securing the shard and mopping up, I take a peek at the blocking mk4 world and see 36 hybrid hives with mk3/4 drones now camped on the command station.  I take a poke at them and get driven back after they burn through a full capacitor in a couple seconds.  So I look closer, and see that they're all equipped with mk4 shields, mk1-3 weapon modules, and that there's now 72 of them in the system.

At this point I turned on advanced logging and loaded my pre-chase save(attached, with logs), then did the chase again.  The hybrids obligingly spawned on cue, all 112 of them.  I also messed around with waiting several more minutes before triggering the chase, to see if there was some overlap with the "normal" hybrid spawn timing, which I found was not the case.  They spawn during the same interval the chase groups spawn.

If this is how it's supposed to work, then I feel dumb and I've wasted a lot of time .  I haven't played a FS game in months.  But I do watch the forums and patch notes pretty closely, and this caught me totally unaware.

[PokerChen]

I have a feeling that this was part of a secret surprise on the "Hybrids are mobilizing" changes... I would have never allowed any of them to live that long, so they instead spawned directly and ate a fabricator after an exo.

[Lancefighter]

The hybrids shoudntve been spawning, but if they were in the area, theyll usually come pay a visit.

Actually, no thats not what it sounds like. Youre on an x map, (super bad), with two hybrids on 4, at diff 8.3. 112 hybrids sounds about right for the initial spawn.. If you have the spare time, load your pre chase spawn and just kinda wait. I cant recall, but I believe hybrids spawn every 20 minutes? then take some time to get fitted and pick up a fleet.

Then again, it also seems to say that the hybrids are mk4 (you mention mk4 shields).. which woudl indicate they are spawned out of place somehow. Id actually throw this up on the mantis -even if they were normal spawns, theres no reason for them to have mk4 shields yet.

[Lancefighter]

actually thats odd.
5/1/2013 7:50:43 PM (6.024) 0:25:11   AutoCreateUnitOutside from SubroutineAvatarSpawner Spawned:SubroutineAvatar (30703)  on Wadis
5/1/2013 7:51:19 PM (6.024) 0:25:12   Hybrid:Neophyte (30703 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Attacker on Wadis
5/1/2013 7:51:20 PM (6.024) 0:25:13   Hybrid:Attacker (30703 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Besieger on Wadis
5/1/2013 7:51:21 PM (6.024) 0:25:14   Hybrid:Besieger (30703 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Annihilator on Wadis

this happens for every hybrid spawned in the first wave for some reason, in the space of like a minute.

[Naz]

edit: ninja'd 

Forgot to mention this earlier: I had noticed a "Hybrids are mobilizing" warning that lined up with the chase interval and the hybrids spawns, but I figured it was distinct from the "Defensive Hybrids are mobilizing" point from the patch notes, since that warning (according to the 5.0 patch notes) indicates existing defensive hybrids switching to an offensive role, which isn't at all what happened.

I can't recall whether I've ever seen "Hybrids are mobilizing" before, or if it was always "Defensive Hybrids are mobilizing." 

@Lancefighter:  That's actually exactly what I did; sent the survey ship back before it completed, and waited.  10 minutes later, at 0:35, the logs said only the super hybrid had spawned.  So I sent the survey ship back out and did the retrieval again.  Same results as before: a pile of hybrids on my doorstep soon afterwards with high level modules, and the logs looked something like this:

Code: [Select]

0:25:11 AutoCreateUnitOutside from SubroutineAvatarSpawner Spawned:SubroutineAvatar (30703)  on Wadis
0:25:11 AutoCreateUnitOutside from SubroutineAvatarSpawner Spawned:SubroutineAvatar (30704)  on Rane
0:25:11 AutoCreateUnitOutside from SubroutineAvatarSpawner Spawned:SubroutineAvatar (30705)  on Boatcenges
0:25:11 AutoCreateUnitOutside from SubroutineAvatarSpawner Spawned:SubroutineAvatar (30706)  on Toothmb
0:25:12 Hybrid:Neophyte (30703 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Attacker on Wadis
0:25:12 Hybrid:Neophyte (30704 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Attacker on Rane
0:25:12 Hybrid:Neophyte (30705 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Attacker on Boatcenges
0:25:12 Hybrid:Neophyte (30706 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Attacker on Toothmb
0:25:13 Hybrid:Attacker (30703 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Besieger on Wadis
0:25:13 Hybrid:Attacker (30704 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Besieger on Rane
0:25:13 Hybrid:Attacker (30705 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Besieger on Boatcenges
0:25:13 Hybrid:Attacker (30706 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Besieger on Toothmb
0:25:14 Hybrid:Besieger (30703 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Annihilator on Wadis
0:25:14 Hybrid:Besieger (30704 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Annihilator on Rane
0:25:14 Hybrid:Besieger (30705 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Annihilator on Boatcenges
0:25:14 Hybrid:Besieger (30706 xp:0)  rally-call-maturing to Annihilator on Toothmb
A few seconds after that, a set of 8 neophytes spawn on 8 new planets and similarly mature to Annihilator almost immediately.  The two groups of planets then continue to spawn waves every 20-30 seconds until the shard is secured.  The survey for that log completed at 0:25:11, and every other time I tried, they started spawning at the exact time the survey completed.

I'm guessing that it's a surprise Advanced Hybrid plot to spawn extra hybrids during chases, but fully mature and so rapidly?  I desperately hope that isn't supposed to happen.  It's gonna mean a lot of warheads until I have the firepower to deter them, much less push them back. 

[keith.lamothe]

Ah, someone found out what it means for them to mobilize now

Yea, it gives a huge buff to spawn rate for 60 seconds (though it still won't exceed the hybrid population cap), and basically matures all offensive types to max (all defensive types were already maturing to offensive equivalents).  Of course, with each pulse of the "chase" potentially causing another mobilization, that can get to be a bit much. 

So perhaps they need to mobilize a max of once per hour, or something scaling by the intensity of the Adv Hybrids setting, etc.

[Mánagarmr]

Ah, someone found out what it means for them to mobilize now

Yea, it gives a huge buff to spawn rate for 60 seconds (though it still won't exceed the hybrid population cap), and basically matures all offensive types to max (all defensive types were already maturing to offensive equivalents).  Of course, with each pulse of the "chase" potentially causing another mobilization, that can get to be a bit much. 

So perhaps they need to mobilize a max of once per hour, or something scaling by the intensity of the Adv Hybrids setting, etc.

Uh, yeah, because having your entire galaxy fill with angry, max level Hybrids with every shard is probably a bit on the harsch side

[keith.lamothe]

Uh, yeah, because having your entire galaxy fill with angry, max level Hybrids with every shard is probably a bit on the harsch side

You guys said you wanted mobilization to do something

[TechSY730]

Uh, yeah, because having your entire galaxy fill with angry, max level Hybrids with every shard is probably a bit on the harsch side

You guys said you wanted mobilization to do something

I sort of meant doing something with what it already had. I didn't mean something like getting a short term "coupon" for free "spawn cheating" and "free high level modules/guards cheating".

[Hearteater]

I think I'd prefer if a chunk of existing hybrids attacked the weakest system they can find, even if evaluation says they'll fail.  Make them stick it out at least 30 seconds.  Maybe they'll get enough damage in to convince the threat fleet to move in.  Then buff the hybrid spawn rate briefly to basically account for the expected death of the attacking hybrids.  I think a lot of times (especially on high difficulty) I can set up scary defenses that the AI won't attack into, but actually couldn't stop the AI if it did.

I also don't really like it messing with the maturation either.  That feels pretty unique and interesting for the hybrids and saying, "Here, have max level" just devalues the entire mechanic.  Why do I care how mature the hybrids are getting when they'll just get bumped to max at some point anyway?

[keith.lamothe]

I think I'd prefer if a chunk of existing hybrids attacked the weakest system they can find, even if evaluation says they'll fail.

In most cases this would be better described by the alert "The Hybrids are throwing their lives away"

[TechSY730]

I think I'd prefer if a chunk of existing hybrids attacked the weakest system they can find, even if evaluation says they'll fail.

In most cases this would be better described by the alert "The Hybrids are throwing their lives away"

...
OK, I will be frank...

That is in part sort of what I wanted.


Not that I think that only 2 hybrids should just blindly rush into a world that they wouldn't of rushed into anyways, but if, say, during this "mobilization" time, 40-50% of the defenders (preferring defenders on non-alerted planets) + all waiting attackers, if massed onto a planet*, can inflict a large amount of damage, even if they fail to take out the planet, that would still be worth it. It would still cause economic damage (possibly helping to tip an otherwise stalemate situation towards the AI side), possibly soften up the planet enough for the threat-fleet to decide it should hop in or whatever, and would help ease the "over-turtleing grind" that hybrids tend to produce.

Now if the hybrids available to use  + their escorts still aren't enough to even get to, say, 10-30% the firepower  (maybe excluding forts) of the weakest planet they can get to, maybe they should skip it. Any odds better than that they should go for.

The "rushing" hybrids would still retreat if their health gets too low, so it wouldn't be a straight up "throwing their lives away".

*preferring, but not always going for, planets they are less "out-firepowered". Making it somewhat probabilistic about which planet they will rush helps to prevent cheese with "bait planets" from becoming too effective

[keith.lamothe]

I could have it lower their threshold for "should I attack", though it may need to do something different when shifting the defensive hybrids to the offense to make sure they have no particular motivation to go refit before attacking, otherwise it kind of slows the whole thing down.

But I think the valuation of balance-of-power using Firepower (instead of Relative Strength) is more at fault for them not attacking at opportune times.

[RockyBst]

Aha!

Well, that would probably explain away the defect I just raised then: http://www.arcengames.com/mantisbt/view.php?id=11086

Still, that's a lot of dyson antagonisers.

[Naz]

I'm very happy to see the hybrids giving a serious response to Fallen Spire events.  If the AIs are concerned by it, the hybrids definitely should be.  I think there's two issues with the current response though.

The smaller, less immediate issue is that in practice, the hybrid response is very similar to the AI's: spawn tons of big ships from nowhere and throw them at the player.  Of course, the hybrids aren't fixated on the shard, and they're occasionally smart enough to run away at the right time.  However, considering the improved threat/threatfleet logic and that hives are straight-up combat units, is the current hybrid response that different from just spawning a huge threatfleet?  This is all tied up with the larger question of what their gameplay niche should be, and how well they're filling it.

The bigger problem is that the response is way too strong in the beginning, and it doesn't sound like it scales with ... anything.  The normal chase groups are totally insignificant in comparison; just look at the logs.  I mean, this was the very first remote signal, and it was the shortest possible chase for it (adjacent rather than 2 hops), and I still ended up with 1.3 billion hp of hives camping my home wormhole.  That's not counting their drones, and I can't build even the first few frigates until after the second retrieval.  It also seems out of whack that the response starts at maximum strength then weakens as you progress the plot and destroy spawners, since they're the only variable.

I'd like it if the strength of the hybrid response was based on the chase strength, scaled by the hybrid/adv.hybrid nonlinear multiplier.  That way their magnitudes are roughly proportional and that proportion can be adjusted in the lobby. 

Or they could spawn (scaled accordingly) a little before exo waves, so they'd be likely to join in the attack.  Or maybe when builders get added back, they could have a plot where they build "exo wave amplifiers" that you'd want to destroy.  Or something more devious.  >D