Author Topic: Wormhole GPosts (And Special Forces GPosts)  (Read 11222 times)

Offline Pumpkin

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,201
  • Neinzul Gardener Enclave
Wormhole GPosts (And Special Forces GPosts)
« on: November 08, 2015, 05:30:22 am »
I know that a Wormhole GPost is supposed to provide reinforcement location to AI's ships even when all other regular posts are busted. However, I never saw them used as reinforcement point. On a neutered planet, reinforcement always spawn at the OCStation. Also during a hack, response fleet always spawn on the OCStation or sometimes near the gravity well, but never at the Wormhole GPosts.

Am I missing something? Is it just because of plain randomness that I never saw reinforcement on a WHole GPost?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 04:58:07 am by Pumpkin »
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline legionof1

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Wormhole GPosts
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2015, 12:08:59 pm »
As far as i understand WH posts add to reinforcements but reinforcements are assigned to appear in a priority fashion at qualifying structures. Command stations occupy the top of this list. So presumably a neutralized system with only WHGP and a command ends up with 99.9% of spawns on the command and since the spawn rate in such a system is minuscule i would guess the criteria to put stuff at a WHGP rarely occurs.   

Hacking responses follow different rules. Most stuff comes from Command(even more so on low aip) but can spawn anywhere in the system. Even blank space or outside the gravity well.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 12:13:06 pm by legionof1 »

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Wormhole GPosts
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2015, 01:58:55 pm »
Not really sure how it is determined WHERE reinforcements appear.  It used to be that they would by created on a per-guardpost basis, including wormhole guardposts, and would appear there. 

Now, it looks like reinforcements are created at the reinforcement warp gate - in most systems, the Command Station, although it can be a Troop Accelerator or similar AI unique, as well.

Here's part of an older log:
Spoiler for Hiden:
Code: [Select]
***Doing guard-post reinforcement pulses:
reinforcementStrengthPerPulse = AIP/40 = 0.4
reinforcementStrengthPerPulse *= (tech level multiplier) = 0.36
reinforcementStrengthPerPulse *= MultiplierFromHumanHomeworldsAndChampions = 0.72
reinforcementStrengthPerPulse must be at least 1 and at most 14; = 1
after AdjustNumberShipsFromAIType, reinforcementStrengthPerPulse = 1
---doing pulse for SpecialForcesCommandPost
StrengthBudget += 3 = 2
AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = 2
bought 1 SpireBladeSpawnerII for 57.6
total count bought: 1, total strength spent: 57.6, remaining = -55.6
---doing pulse for AIPassiveGuardPostII
StrengthBudget += 1 = -54.6
AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = -54.6
total count bought: 0, total strength spent: 0, remaining = -54.6
---doing pulse for AIMLRSGuardPostII
StrengthBudget += 1 = -53.6
AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = -53.6
total count bought: 0, total strength spent: 0, remaining = -53.6
---doing pulse for AIShortRangeGuardPostII
StrengthBudget += 1 = -52.6
AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = -52.6
total count bought: 0, total strength spent: 0, remaining = -52.6
---doing pulse for AIMLRSGuardPostII
StrengthBudget += 1 = -51.6
AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = -51.6
total count bought: 0, total strength spent: 0, remaining = -51.6
---doing pulse for AIShortRangeGuardPostII
StrengthBudget += 1 = -50.6
AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = -50.6
total count bought: 0, total strength spent: 0, remaining = -50.6
---doing pulse for AISpireShieldSphereGuardPostII
StrengthBudget += 1 = -49.6
AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = -49.6
total count bought: 0, total strength spent: 0, remaining = -49.6
---doing pulse for WormholeCommandPost
StrengthBudget += 1 = -48.6
AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = -48.6
total count bought: 0, total strength spent: 0, remaining = -48.6
---doing pulse for WormholeCommandPost
StrengthBudget += 1 = -47.6
AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = -47.6
total count bought: 0, total strength spent: 0, remaining = -47.6
---doing pulse for WormholeCommandPost
StrengthBudget += 1 = -46.6
AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = -46.6
total count bought: 0, total strength spent: 0, remaining = -46.6
---doing pulse for WormholeCommandPost
StrengthBudget += 1 = -45.6
AIBuyShipsFromList StrengthBudget = -45.6
total count bought: 0, total strength spent: 0, remaining = -45.6
As you can see, it used to buy units post-by-post.  There was a lot of interesting math in determining the total budget and assigning reinforcement pulses - totally neutering a system actually made each reinforcement pulse stronger than the base size, even if fewer posts got reinforced.
Also, high-priority reinforcement systems would get two reinforcement pulses - but the second one only came if there were leftover pulses after the first round of high-priority targets had been reinforced.


Here's part of a new log:
Spoiler for Hiden:
Code: [Select]

= Trying to reinforce Notinuo (#1)
planet.CurrentFleetshipReinforcementBalance = -0.65
Reinforcement focus types: MLRS,Fighter,Cruiser
numberOfGuardables = planet.FgNonWormholeNonSpecialForcesGuardPosts.Count + ( planet.OrbitalCommandStation == null ? 0 : 1 ) = 1
currentPopulation = rollup.AlliedUnits.Count + rollup.Planet.FgColdStorageUnits.Count = 13
populationCap = numberOfGuardables = 1
populationCap *= Game.Instance.Options.UnitCapScale.AIShipCapPerPost = 100
since !(planet.WasOriginallyHomePlanet || planet.IsCoreAIPlanet), maximum = Game.Instance.Options.UnitCapScale.AIShipCapMaxNormal = 700
minimum = Game.Instance.Options.UnitCapScale.AIShipCapMinimum = 200
populationCap = Max(populationCap,mimimum) = 200
currentPopulation < populationCap, so proceeding with reinforcement here

multiplierFromPriority = 1
due to reinforce priority >= 2000, multiplierFromPriority += 1 = 2
multiplierFromSpecialStructures = 1
multiplierFromGuardPosts = 1 + planet.FgNonWormholeNonSpecialForcesGuardPosts.Count * 0.1 = 1
reinforcementFleetShipBudget = baseReinforcementFleetShipBudget = 6
reinforcementFleetShipBudget *= multiplierFromPriority = 11.99
reinforcementFleetShipBudget *= multiplierFromSpecialStructures = 11.99
reinforcementFleetShipBudget *= multiplierFromGuardPosts = 11.99
planet.CurrentFleetshipReinforcementBalance += reinforcementFleetShipBudget = 11.35
called Helper_PickUnitsForReinforcement with: Fighter, Bomber, MissileShip, MLRS, ZenithSiegeEngine
which became, after calling PruneFGTypeListAccordingToPlanetReinforcementTypes, : Fighter, Fighter, Fighter, MissileShip, MLRS, MLRS, MLRS, MLRS, MLRS, MLRS, MLRS, MLRS, MLRS
** Picked
5 MLRS @ 2.53 each = 12.63
After picking fleet ships, planet.CurrentFleetshipReinforcementBalance = is now -1.28

= checking for starship or guardian reinforcements
reinforcementFleetShipBudget: 11.99
player.AITypeData.StarshipBudgetMultiplier: 0.08
= reinforcementStarshipBudget = reinforcementFleetShipBudget * player.AITypeData.StarshipBudgetMultiplier * 8 = 8.06
planet.CurrentStarshipGuardianReinforcementBalance += reinforcementStarshipBudget = 2.5
maxStarshipsAtPlanet = planetReinforcementAITechLevel * 3 = 3
current starship count: 0
this planet is adjacent to a human homeworld, so can't pick guardians
maxGuardiansPerGuardable is 1, plus 1 if Diff >= 8, plus 1 if Diff >= 10: 2
totalAllowedGuardians = numberOfGuardables * maxGuardiansPerGuardable = 2
currentGuardianCount: 0
called Helper_PickUnitsForReinforcement with: LightStarship, Dreadnought, LeechStarship
which became, after calling PruneFGTypeListAccordingToPlanetReinforcementTypes, : LightStarship, Dreadnought, LeechStarship
** Picked
1 LightStarship @ 96 each = 96
After picking, planet.CurrentStarshipGuardianReinforcementBalance = -93.5

remainingReinforcements -= multiplierFromPriority = 0


totals for planet 1 (Notinuo); count: 6, strength: 108.63
totals for MLRS; count: 5, strength: 12.63
totals for LightStarship; count: 1, strength: 96
== grand totals; count: 6, strength: 108.63
Here, we see several things.
First, that 2 * 6 = 11.99.
Second, the budget is determined all at once, with a base value multiplied by the number of guardposts + command station.  Wormhole guardposts are NOT included on this list.  They do count towards the system population cap, though, but do not increase the cap like other guardposts.  So wormhold guardposts are really and truly good for nothing.
Third, high priority systems receive a single double reinforcement pulse right at the beginning.  So a few higher priority systems can totally consume the reinforcement pulses for lower priority systems.  However, the list still loops once, so a system can actually receive two double-strength pulses.

I set up a game with a beachhead, and watched it reinforce for a few hours gametime (+10 FTW) as I read a book.  The reinforcements appeared at the AI Command Station (or possibly the Warp Gate, couldn't tell) and the normal guardposts.  Never at the wormhole guardposts.  Also never at the Special Forces guardpost (they are also good for nothing these days, it seems).  But despite most reinforcements appearing at the Command Station, not all did.  It looked kind of like it was doling them out by ID number, as the high ID number GPs got reinforcements much less often.  But sometimes they did anyway.

In otherwords, I experimented a bunch, and can say:  I dunno.

Offline legionof1

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 13
Re: Wormhole GPosts
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2015, 07:01:57 pm »
Snip
Also never at the Special Forces guardpost (they are also good for nothing these days, it seems).
Snip

To my understanding the spawns assigned to SF posts get redirected into the SF fleet where ever that happens to be. Or at least its my experience that as SF posts die the SF rebuilds slower. Still pretty quickly anyway as the contribution by posts is marginal compared to base growth and AIP contribution. But it does matter in the long run. My recent game where i ignored SF posts so my AIP floor stayed lower(going for 110 conquest) had the SF being a consistent warhead sink as opposed to my normal games at similar AIP where i can usually fight and kill the SF in direct combat due to its normally piecemeal arrival. With out the SF post gone there was just far to many units for the fleet to handle without support.


Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Wormhole GPosts
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 07:41:59 pm »
Snip
Also never at the Special Forces guardpost (they are also good for nothing these days, it seems).
Snip

To my understanding the spawns assigned to SF posts get redirected into the SF fleet where ever that happens to be. Or at least its my experience that as SF posts die the SF rebuilds slower. Still pretty quickly anyway as the contribution by posts is marginal compared to base growth and AIP contribution. But it does matter in the long run. My recent game where i ignored SF posts so my AIP floor stayed lower(going for 110 conquest) had the SF being a consistent warhead sink as opposed to my normal games at similar AIP where i can usually fight and kill the SF in direct combat due to its normally piecemeal arrival. With out the SF post gone there was just far to many units for the fleet to handle without support.
I think you're somewhat right.  If I remember correctly, the AI Special Forces gets a boost for every SF Guardpost in human territory?  The Special Forces may also get a boost for the posts just existing, but if so it is very small.  But since the +1 AIP for killing them went away, I'm not sure if those bonuses matter any more.  Here: I checked the SF logs - numberOfSpecialForcesPostsInNonAITerritory is still listed in the math, so it still happens, but without the AIP penalty I don't see it being non-zero very often.  Total number of SF posts isn't shown as used anywhere, so I don't think it matters.

Offline Pumpkin

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,201
  • Neinzul Gardener Enclave
Re: Wormhole GPosts
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2015, 04:13:08 am »
the AI Special Forces gets a boost for every SF Guardpost in human territory?
You mean, if a player capture a planet without destroying the SForces GPost? Why would someone do that? They're squishy, and there is no point in letting anything alive when capturing a planet. I really don't get it. As for the WHole GPosts, I don't understand why Arcen made them in the first place, and if the game evolved and they became useless, why didn't they remove them?
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Wormhole GPosts
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2015, 03:36:28 pm »
the AI Special Forces gets a boost for every SF Guardpost in human territory?
You mean, if a player capture a planet without destroying the SForces GPost? Why would someone do that? They're squishy, and there is no point in letting anything alive when capturing a planet. I really don't get it. As for the WHole GPosts, I don't understand why Arcen made them in the first place, and if the game evolved and they became useless, why didn't they remove them?
The Special Forces Guardposts used to give +1 AIP on death, and there were a lot of them, so not destroying them unless you needed to was standard.  It saved 10-20 AIP in most games, and by sticking some turrets near them you could wear down the Special Forces (AI units that used to wander between SF guardposts, even through human systems, unlike the current Special Forces).

As for the wormhole guardposts, they used to be how the game spawned reinforcements and kept AI units at the wormholes.  I think the current lack of reinforcement to them is an accident.
Also, they're rather essential to the Bouncer AI type.

Offline Pumpkin

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,201
  • Neinzul Gardener Enclave
Re: Wormhole GPosts
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 06:42:12 pm »
Oh, the behaviors you describe, Toranth, sounds super interesting! SForces roaming from post to post like trains and WHole GPosts being actually useful! That would have been... !!fun!! to say the least.

Seriously, I mean it. Why WHole GPosts have been stripped out of their usefulness? If it's a bug, how a bug that huge hasn't been fixed by the time? (And by Keith, of course; time alone can do nothing to AIW. Not even wear it down.) And if it's intended, how haven't them been just scrapped out?

About SForces roaming like Astro Trains, okay, I may see why they have been sized down to patrols intercepting player's attacks (and they do a pretty good job at this). But the old behavior sounds awesome! At least on the paper. Tell us, Toranth (and other ol' players that might read us right now): wasn't that fun? Wasn't that much funnier than the Astro Trains? If it was, I hope to see this behavior as a new-old plot: it would be terribly !!fun!! to enable both "Hunter" and "SF-GP that does 1 AIP on death or route the cops right in your home".

While I'm thinking about it, this is exactly the thing that I hate about astro-trains: you can't fight them. You can try to reroute them, but you can't stop them if you can't reroute elsewhere than by your territory. And SForces with "AIP or take-my-patrol-rails-in-your-face" can be dealt with (with sufficient firepower). For me, that would entirely "patch" the ATrain plot. I never play with it. I did a couple of times (maybe more; I can't remember) and hated them.

Well. Tell us, old players. How was it, back in the days? Was it fun? Don't you want to see some old features back in the game? Y'know, we're hearing gossips about AIW2, around the place.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Toranth

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,244
Re: Wormhole GPosts
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2015, 07:21:27 pm »
Oh, the behaviors you describe, Toranth, sounds super interesting! SForces roaming from post to post like trains and WHole GPosts being actually useful! That would have been... !!fun!! to say the least.
[...]
About SForces roaming like Astro Trains, okay, I may see why they have been sized down to patrols intercepting player's attacks (and they do a pretty good job at this). But the old behavior sounds awesome! At least on the paper. Tell us, Toranth (and other ol' players that might read us right now): wasn't that fun?
My opinion, at least, is that the new version is an improvement.

Basically, the old Special Forces never had the numbers to amount to much.  It wandered in a large number of small groups.  If it happened to move between two SF guardposts along a path that crossed a human system, that group would enter the human system.  So, you basically had a trickle of ships randomly entering your systems.  Groups of 5 or 10 units, up to maybe 50 endgame.  Basically, no one cared and the Special Forces were frequently criticized for having no 'teeth' to speak of.  It only mattered really early game, like the first 10 minutes, when a group of 10 SF units MK IV might appear and wipe out your home system.  Once you had some turrets down, though, problem over.  The AIP management for killing/not killing the Guardposts was also annoying, but to no great impact. 
See some comments here or here for some of the history.

The new Special Forces actively try to defend the uniques that the Human wants to capture, making the player work harder for it.  They intercept raids, so you need to plan better or accept for frequent fleetwipes.  They provide a pool of units for use in supplying CPAs, which was a serious problem before the SF and Strategic Reserve changes came about.
Like Threatfleet, the SF hides - the player has to hunt it down (or bait it out) to reduce it and make other operations easier.  If ignored too long... it came become a real pain.

Although I do feel like they shouldn't be called "Special Forces" anymore, since they're so defensive.  They're more like the AI's physical version of anti-malware.
AI 1- "Another human infestation in sector 1001010."
AI 2- "Again?  All right, call in the SF to reformat and quarantine the sector."

Offline Pumpkin

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,201
  • Neinzul Gardener Enclave
Re: Wormhole GPosts
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2015, 04:57:46 am »
Thank you very much Toranth. Your analysis is very precise. I appreciate.

So, the SF GPosts are basically just math things, now. Don't you think they can be just removed entirely and replace by only maths? Maybe the formula can take some metrics with AIP or number of human-held planets, or something like that. I think they are relatively misleading, or at least confusing, now: killing them no more reroute the SForces, and wiping them all from the galaxy doesn't seem to hinder their respawn rate.

While I'm here, I think a 3-state button in the "plot" menu for the Special Forces would be an improvement: none/normal/extra (with extra being the current Hunter plot). AIW2 has been tagged as "possible", why not starting to stash the changes we would want to see?

The new Special Forces actively try to defend the uniques that the Human wants to capture, making the player work harder for it.  They intercept raids, so you need to plan better or accept for frequent fleetwipes.  They provide a pool of units for use in supplying CPAs, which was a serious problem before the SF and Strategic Reserve changes came about.
Like Threatfleet, the SF hides - the player has to hunt it down (or bait it out) to reduce it and make other operations easier.  If ignored too long... it came become a real pain.
Yeah, I love their behavior. I tried the hunter plot one day and hell it was !!fun!!

However, I'm sure this old train-like routing had some good ideas behind. Can't we come up with an alternate behavior that would do what the original SForces intended? It would be fully optional and the default would still be the SForces as we currently know (and love) them. Y'know, the regular sort of MF/plot/modz. The "1 AIP or rail-in-your-face" seems like a good ground idea. The problem was that SForces weren't strong enough to make it fun. Okay. Here is my proposal: starting from their current "distant sneaky roaming" that allow them to build up and effectively (and entertainingly) defend special systems, and adding the 1-AIP-on-death on SF GPosts that, instead of always routing them like trains, would tag any human world with an active SF-GP as "invade-able". That would be paired with a threatfleet-like invasion evaluation formula: while the SForces are too thin, they keep sneaky-roaming away and building up, and once they're strong enough, they pick a human planet with a living SF-GP and go for it.

The players would be able to deal with this by either killing all SF-GP in their territory and taking the AIP increase, or not killing the GP and dealing with occasional SF invasions. Also, SF may be hunted as normal to prevent them from ever reaching the invasion threshold. The plots would have one on/off switch for the "Hunter" plot, and one other on/off for the "SF Invasion". (We need to come up with a better name for this one. Oh, maybe just "Invasion".)

Et voilĂ  !

Although I do feel like they shouldn't be called "Special Forces" anymore, since they're so defensive.  They're more like the AI's physical version of anti-malware.
AI 1- "Another human infestation in sector 1001010."
AI 2- "Again?  All right, call in the SF to reformat and quarantine the sector."
:D
I love the AIs going "again?" and being super upset about humans.
I often nickname the SF "cops". Also, the Riot Control Starships are already very thematic with cops and defensive response.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Magitek

  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Wormhole GPosts (And Special Forces GPosts)
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2015, 05:42:11 am »
I took Wormhole guardposts and reduced their health to 50000, stopped them attacking things for 1 damage. I was actually just going to flat out remove them, but I heard they act as spawning points for the AI, is this still the case?

I'm totally not fond of AI War's random invulnerabilities, so I did similar things to astrotrains and to a lesser extent AI Eyes. The wormhole guard posts take the cake for pointlessly invulnerable/annoying however.

I really liked the old SF guard posts, the universe feels a lot more alive in the older versions of AI war, but I understand they were probably a bit of a waste on CPU.

Offline Pumpkin

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,201
  • Neinzul Gardener Enclave
Re: Wormhole GPosts (And Special Forces GPosts)
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2015, 06:20:33 am »
I'm totally not fond of AI War's random invulnerabilities, so I did similar things to astrotrains and to a lesser extent AI Eyes. The wormhole guard posts take the cake for pointlessly invulnerable/annoying however.
On Astro Trains, I agree: 4,000,000 hp is ridiculous; just plain "invincible" would have been more honest. And I personally think the core of the problem with them is there is no (or veeery few) ways to deal with them (and rerouting isn't doable in all situations and map styles). So yeah, killable ATrains would be fun, IMO. How does the mod'ed trains felt, Magitek?

On the Eyes' point, however, I would disagree with reducing their hp. There is a way to get rid of them without touching it (killing all other GPosts in the planet, for those who read this thread and don't know). Attacking them directly before killing all GPosts is an option, but it's a backup solution and used only in very special cases. It's the points of the eyes to be such a challenge. It would be ok if they were just plain invincible and killable only by destroying other GPosts, but the direct assault is a strategic option, and I see no point in removing this option or making it more easy.

Just a little story. (Don't read this if you don't want: it's just a concrete example of why I believe eyes are fine the way they currently are.)
Yesterday evening I was playing AI War (I can't play Starward Rogue all day long ;) ) and I found a MkIV planet 2 hops from my homeworld with a subcommander (and an aggressive one), a CSG A-prime (and its ARS) and an eye. I had only MkI triangle ships, one youngling design and very few metal (it was very early in the game). I didn't wanted to invest K in the triangle ships, younglings weren't a solution for the eye, and I had too few metal for a true starship fleet able to deal with an aggressive MkIV subcommander, and because one of the AIs was the one with many OMD, I wasn't willing to invest K in starships. And I really wanted it, and I wanted it soon, because it was a roadblock and had many metal, and had a CSG & ARS and was very near my homeworld. So how to deal with this planet and its eye? The answer was a lightning missile MkII. 2 AIP and something like the metal price of one low-mark starship (and the pair of cloaker starships to deliver the payload after some MkI Fighters took the Tachyon Sentry out of the way). Only one GPost wasn't in range of the missile, and my MkI triangle ships came and took it down. The MkIV ships that survived the explosion were a threat, for sure. Shortly after, I lose a world and used a MkI lightning missile (+1 AIP), but it was a plain mistake from me: I neglected a little wave and the MkIV threat banded with it. If I have been more careful, I would have paid only 2 AIP and some metal. So, what is my point? Eyes are fine (and fun) as they are now, IMO: they force players in uncommon strategies, but there is plenty of tools out there to deal with them. Starship fleet is another fun solution, for example.

TL;DR:
-> Remove WHole GPosts: ok for me.
-> Downgrade ATrains' hp: how does it feel?
-> Downgrade Eyes' hp: I disagree.
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Magitek

  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Wormhole GPosts (And Special Forces GPosts)
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2015, 08:15:11 pm »
I'm totally not fond of AI War's random invulnerabilities, so I did similar things to astrotrains and to a lesser extent AI Eyes. The wormhole guard posts take the cake for pointlessly invulnerable/annoying however.
On Astro Trains, I agree: 4,000,000 hp is ridiculous; just plain "invincible" would have been more honest. And I personally think the core of the problem with them is there is no (or veeery few) ways to deal with them (and rerouting isn't doable in all situations and map styles). So yeah, killable ATrains would be fun, IMO. How does the mod'ed trains felt, Magitek?
Honestly, I'm not sure how to balance them, because as you ramp up the Astrotrain difficulty, the convoy multiplies in size (and targeting difficulty because they're all on top of each other). I'd like to run Astrotrains on 8/10 or something, but I think even at 100k HP they're probably still too strong/annoying. I wanted more variety in train types, but it spawns too many in one convoy and it just becomes a real mess to deal with. I'm thinking about reducing their speed a bit but I'm not entirely sure how this will affect things, or perhaps limiting the types that can spawn in one convoy (because looking at each individual train to figure out what you need to kill is a nightmare).

Something like making a bunch of the standard trains damage-dealing but easily destroyable, with one major train in there to mix up combat situations.

Quote
On the Eyes' point, however, I would disagree with reducing their hp. There is a way to get rid of them without touching it (killing all other GPosts in the planet, for those who read this thread and don't know). Attacking them directly before killing all GPosts is an option, but it's a backup solution and used only in very special cases. It's the points of the eyes to be such a challenge. It would be ok if they were just plain invincible and killable only by destroying other GPosts, but the direct assault is a strategic option, and I see no point in removing this option or making it more easy.
I understand why AI Eyes exist, but I find they don't make for fluid gameplay. The game can throw plenty curveballs without relying on these. I just put them down to a million HP so that if you're forced to kill them, it just takes less time. The only 'invulnerabilities' that I enjoy are the core shield generators mechanic.

It would've been nice if we had an actual invincibility tag as you said. Seeing 4m HP on things you're not supposed to kill is odd.
I'm not looking to rebalance the whole game, just eliminate a few things that annoy me about the newer AI War. I appreciate the story :)
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 08:43:21 pm by Magitek »

Offline Pumpkin

  • Hero Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,201
  • Neinzul Gardener Enclave
Re: Wormhole GPosts (And Special Forces GPosts)
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2015, 02:31:37 am »
Quote
On the Eyes' point, however, I would disagree with reducing their hp. There is a way to get rid of them without touching it (killing all other GPosts in the planet, for those who read this thread and don't know). Attacking them directly before killing all GPosts is an option, but it's a backup solution and used only in very special cases. It's the points of the eyes to be such a challenge. It would be ok if they were just plain invincible and killable only by destroying other GPosts, but the direct assault is a strategic option, and I see no point in removing this option or making it more easy.
I understand why AI Eyes exist, but I find they don't make for fluid gameplay. The game can throw plenty curveballs without relying on these. I just put them down to a million HP so that if you're forced to kill them, it just takes less time. The only 'invulnerabilities' that I enjoy are the core shield generators mechanic.
I was planning a proposal for a deep revamp of the lobby. Optional Eyes (just like DGLairs and Counter Posts are optional) are definitely in!

Quote
It would've been nice if we had an actual invincibility tag as you said. Seeing 4m HP on things you're not supposed to kill is odd.
I'm not looking to rebalance the whole game, just eliminate a few things that annoy me about the newer AI War. I appreciate the story :)
I know what you're talking about! ;D
So how does it feels? Did you try to kill a 1m HP eye with no superweapon? Is it better?
Please excuse my english: I'm not a native speaker. Don't hesitate to correct me.

Offline Magitek

  • Jr. Member Mark II
  • **
  • Posts: 72
Re: Wormhole GPosts (And Special Forces GPosts)
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2015, 03:53:16 am »
Quote
On the Eyes' point, however, I would disagree with reducing their hp. There is a way to get rid of them without touching it (killing all other GPosts in the planet, for those who read this thread and don't know). Attacking them directly before killing all GPosts is an option, but it's a backup solution and used only in very special cases. It's the points of the eyes to be such a challenge. It would be ok if they were just plain invincible and killable only by destroying other GPosts, but the direct assault is a strategic option, and I see no point in removing this option or making it more easy.
I understand why AI Eyes exist, but I find they don't make for fluid gameplay. The game can throw plenty curveballs without relying on these. I just put them down to a million HP so that if you're forced to kill them, it just takes less time. The only 'invulnerabilities' that I enjoy are the core shield generators mechanic.
I was planning a proposal for a deep revamp of the lobby. Optional Eyes (just like DGLairs and Counter Posts are optional) are definitely in!

Quote
It would've been nice if we had an actual invincibility tag as you said. Seeing 4m HP on things you're not supposed to kill is odd.
I'm not looking to rebalance the whole game, just eliminate a few things that annoy me about the newer AI War. I appreciate the story :)
I know what you're talking about! ;D
So how does it feels? Did you try to kill a 1m HP eye with no superweapon? Is it better?
Hah - you think I have time to actually play the game while modding? :p
Let me know if you want to test the mod, I'm still thinking about what else I want to change before committing to a playthrough.