Very difficult counterattack wave and strategy overview question

[Irxallis]

Hello,

I am a new player and I have a base game, Zenith and CoN. Until now I *thought* I understood the game 'intuitively' pretty well (not advanced tactics, just... basics), but I hit a bit of a stumbling block while trying to down a Counterattack Post mark 4.

First I will try to explain the situation and then I will ask several questions if I may; thank you very much for your patience, but I don't know what information will be required and this campaign is VERY unlike my previous victorious one.

Settings:
- map seed 1063476562
- selected Laser Gatling position
- 80 planets, realistic, conquest
- Mad Bomber + Bully, 7.3 diff.
- Complex ships, Epic speed, no special options aside 'reveal AI type'; most recent Beta update (but the game was started several days ago)

The current map:
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8494/screenshot2010112000171.jpg

My previous game was on Simple map type, so I don't know if it is normal for Realistic maps but this map seems to be quite a difficult one. Advanced Factories (marked P8) are kind of away from my HQ and the only 'accessible' one is on class3 planet and borders a class3 planet as well. P9 are Core Worlds and there are awfully many planets class 3 and 4 which are in the way of goodies to take. No Advanced Research Stations in close vicinity (P6) - I got the only one which gave me Zenith Chameleons. Fortunately, there are 2 Zenith Reactors (P5) from which I already took one.

At the moment the AI progress is 71, as I made a successful raid against AI Co-Processors.

Planet denoted as P2 (left part of the map, class 4) and having a scout (positioned above P4) contained a Counterattack post mk 4. As I wanted to get the P4 planet (on the way to AI world, has a fabricator of Bulletproof which I had never seen yet and has a Black Widow Golem - and I'd like to activate a golem once even if it costs me a game to see what are those) I decided to kill the P2 to have a supply line.

The problem is I got a response wave from the counterattack post of about 1000 ships, from which there were ~30 bombers tier 5, ~500 bombers tier 4, ~400 zenith bombers tier 4 and some smaller tier4 craft. Those spawned on a planet with no wave multiplier and all of them except ~100 made a run towards my homeworld pillaging everything in their path.

I retreated with everything I had to the homeworld, hoping the AI will ignore the remote Zenith power generator planet. As my knowledge gained was not too high, my homeworld was mostly protected by the triangle ships mk2 (only bombers were mk3) / laser gatlings mk1 and full ship cap of mercenary fighters (and several random ships leech starships managed to get me). I unlocked beam turrets mk1, basic ones mk2, missile ones mk2 and tractors mk2 aside the information already given; from less relevant things: siege starships mk2 and scouts mk2.

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6610/screenshot2010112000065.jpg

I *think* I was doing quite well (especially as I fed them with 3 lightning warheads mk2 before they entered - not too major damage, zeniths were the closest ones) but then marauding ~100 bombers mk4 destroyed the zenith power generator on the remote planet and the tractor beams/forcefields on my homeworld fell... the AI won again ;-).

---

Several questions:

- Is this kind of wave 'normal' from the counterattack post (at 71 AI progress if it is related to AIP at all)? I managed to deal with a Raid Engine and cross-planetary assault, but this is something far beyond my abilities to defeat, especially without T4 ships of my own being able to stop 400 zenith bombers mk4.

- Should I postpone killing the counterattack guard post and do some knowledge raids on the systems close to me first to unlock something? Or get the advanced factory first? I don't really want to TAKE 'useless systems' I can raid and I am afraid to get the Zenith power plant #2 not to get a tripled counterattack wave there (or a factory, not to lose it to 400 zenith bombers mk4 - I have NO IDEA how to stop such a wave).

- Would large enough number of electric warheads be able to save the day? And would it be worth the insane AI progress (which I try to keep below 100 all the time; I calculated I can get further 240 AI progress reduction from 12 data centers in the galaxy and then I can reduce the steep 100 AIP from the golem using the AI Superterminal)

- I read the golem requires both AI and my supply. Does that mean I cannot use it as a guardian on the world if AI cannot call a warp there? Can I move it through the worlds where there is no AI supply or it can neither move or shoot?

- Would a Black Widow golem be able to help me survive such a wave (aside the usual army I have, of course - I have AI supply on my homeworld, as I make it *the* world for enemies to warp into; makes life much easier for cross-planetary attacks).

- Is this game salvageable at all with my current approach or should I change the general strategy? There are several Alarm posts (and other Counterattack posts - every P2 is something very nasty like Raid/Alarm/Counterattack) on the way to southern AI's base... and hopping through ~3~4 systems using transports might not be easy with such a density of class 3 and 4 planets.

- Any hints what could I do I haven't done yet (as a manner of explorations of possibilities; I don't mind losing a game if I learn something interesting)?

- Am I playing 'too slow' giving AI time to build up? I didn't have any problems with it yet, but I noticed assaulting some planets is very painful.

- Would neutering planets bordering my planets be a good move? As in: attack, destroy all guard posts, leave command center and warp gate, knowledge raid, forget about it? Or would it make AI reinforce other planets as the limit of units is not 'fulfilled' yet? I prefer planets nearby being strong to those other planets being strong.

- Is there a way to tell the turrets 'ignore those shield bearers, kill those blasted bombers'? Is right clicking bombers enough to make missile turrets prioritize those?

- Would EMP mines be able to help here? I was using lots of normal mines, but enemy ships just flew through them without any visible damage; I guess Mark4 can do something like that :-).

---

I love this game. I thought Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance was the best available implementation of a RTS genre, but AI War is... much more into my tastes.

I might have played tutorials and watched all video tutorials I found, but I am still a newbie - I might not really know what I am talking about, especially with such rapid balance changes (which personally I consider a good thing, MUCH superior to the alternative).

Thank you for any hints, tips or answers you consider helpful, not necessarily on topic ;-).

[wyvern83]

I tried to give at least a basic answer to all of your questions but there others who could give better specific advice. This should help for now though.

- Is this kind of wave 'normal' from the counterattack post (at 71 AI progress if it is related to AIP at all)? I managed to deal with a Raid Engine and cross-planetary assault, but this is something far beyond my abilities to defeat, especially without T4 ships of my own being able to stop 400 zenith bombers mk4.

- Should I postpone killing the counterattack guard post

I'm not sure, someone else might be able to tell you. Counter-waves are 4x of a normal wave so take the normal waves you were getting at that point and divide by 4. Winter Born made a very nice wiki article about them. http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_AI_Unit_-_Warp_CounterAttack_GP

Postpone attacking that one till you can produce some mk3 and mk4 ships of your own, so yes for getting more knowledge and the advanced factory as well. A mk4 counter-post is meant to be a significant challenge, don't provoke it until your ready or not at all if you can avoid it. 

- Would large enough number of electric warheads be able to save the day?

Yes but in general if missiles are your only option you may have made a mistake or been dealt a bad hand which also happens.

- Would a Black Widow golem be able to help me survive such a wave (aside the usual army I have, of course - I have AI supply on my homeworld, as I make it *the* world for enemies to warp into; makes life much easier for cross-planetary attacks).

Golems can move anywhere but they are only fully operational in both supplies.

The Black Widow could be tremendously helpful, just make sure its not some where vital when you trigger the attack because of its wave bonus. I'd 'hide' it in an un-colonized system and then move it into position after the wave is declared. The mass engine damage would be very helpful.

On the topic of emp mines double check for immunities: if z electric bombers and other troublesome ships are immune than no, if not then you probably should. Try to position them as best you can.

Neutering Border worlds is almost always a good idea. However I notice you mentioned k-raiding twice in your post, be aware that k-raiding with the mk3 science station is meant to be a last resort, its ok to take planets.  20-30 planets on an 80 planet isn't too bad as a guess. 10-15 is very minimal.

As for if you are slow, 6 planets in 7-8 hours isn't bad, though I suspect that you might have taken more if it weren't for the k-raiding I suspect you were doing. Also if attacking certain planets was too painful you might not have been entirely ready for them, certain planets are bound to be tough so either prepare more for them or avoid them if you can.

- Is there a way to tell the turrets 'ignore those shield bearers, kill those blasted bombers'? Is right clicking bombers enough to make missile turrets prioritize those?

I believe the answer to that one is yes, but I've never done it. It involves changing the target preference list, there should be a menu somewhere to let you do it.

- Is this game salvageable at all with my current approach or should I change the general strategy?

I think your game is perfectly salvageable from what I can tell, focus on getting more knowledge, resources, energy and more ships esp. of higher marks and you should do fine.

[TheDeadlyShoe]

Don't worry about playing too slow.  Speed mostly matters in terms of automatic ai progress increases, which unless you've changed it somehow is pretty moderate. Its true that the longer you leave a border world the stronger it will be, but that just means you need to spend more ships taking it, and since its been longer you have more resources to build ships with. So.

If you have Hybrid Hives activated, then taking your time will let more hives spawn and the current hives mature to higher ranks. And lets them spam forcefields and such on AI worlds.  So if you are getting bogged down, make it a priority to exterminate hives when you have the opportunity. 

Any manual attack command will set the selected ships preferred target to what you clicked. 

I read the golem requires both AI and my supply. Does that mean I cannot use it as a guardian on the world if AI cannot call a warp there? Can I move it through the worlds where there is no AI supply or it can neither move or shoot?

Units out of supply basically act like they are Paused. They can still move normally.

Excessive golem turtling is exactly why Golems require AI Warpgate Supply. The Black Widow is really better suited to offensive operations in my view though, so, no biggie. :^)
 

400 zenith bombers tier 4

Ahaha. Nope. You're boned if you activate that counterattack.

400 Mk IV Electric Bombers is pretty much... break out the wine, lie back, and think of england. There is virtually nothing you can do against that. 

I mean, theoretically you could do something like, radar jammar + mk iii grav turret + full cap mk iii space planes + full cap mk iii missile turrets, but nothing short of that is going to do it.

Counterattacks are always about 1000 mixed ships, of the same mark as the Counterattack Guard Post. 

Just skip that world.

[x4000]

400 zenith bombers tier 4

Ahaha. Nope. You're boned.

400 Mk IV Electric Bombers is pretty much... break out the wine and watch the fireworks. Unless Chameleons counter them... I don't think they do.

That's a temporary imbalance that won't be around by the time we have the next official version.  It's something for next week, actually.  That many zenith electric bombers, or that many spire ships, is just too devastating.

[Winter Born]

You have done a good job of scouting and keeping the AIP down

If you have a save just prior to attacking the Counter Atttack GP that would be handy. Or right after the counter wave was announced

The max # of ships in a wave right now is 1000, so you maxed that.
I am guessing the CouterAttack GP belonged to the mad bomber? You got blasted by a ridiculous # of Zenith bombers.
A Warp Counter Attack Mk4 is a sure way to have "fun" and maybe unwinable with a mad bomber.


It would take 5  Lightning WH Mk2 to kill a batch of  Zenith Bombers.
Looking at the ref tab they are only immune to Blade attack but they hav a lot of armor and health (Human ship cap is 6 on normal)

-------------------------------------------
Several questions:

- Is this kind of wave 'normal' from the counterattack post (at 71 AI progress if it is related to AIP at all)? I managed to deal with a Raid Engine and cross-planetary assault, but this is something far beyond my abilities to defeat, especially without T4 ships of my own being able to stop 400 zenith bombers mk4.

The ships in the generated wave are related to the level of the Planet and Counter Attack GP

- Should I postpone killing the counterattack guard post and do some knowledge raids on the systems close to me first to unlock something? Or get the advanced factory first? I don't really want to TAKE 'useless systems' I can raid and I am afraid to get the Zenith power plant #2 not to get a tripled counterattack wave there (or a factory, not to lose it to 400 zenith bombers mk4 - I have NO IDEA how to stop such a wave).

If you can avoid this planet that would be best.

- Would large enough number of electric warheads be able to save the day? And would it be worth the insane AI progress (which I try to keep below 100 all the time; I calculated I can get further 240 AI progress reduction from 12 data centers in the galaxy and then I can reduce the steep 100 AIP from the golem using the AI Superterminal)

5 Mk2 elect warheads are required per batch of Zenith

- I read the golem requires both AI and my supply. Does that mean I cannot use it as a guardian on the world if AI cannot call a warp there? Can I move it through the worlds where there is no AI supply or it can neither move or shoot?

It needs both Human supply and an AI warp gate to "attack" but not to move.

- Would a Black Widow golem be able to help me survive such a wave (aside the usual army I have, of course - I have AI supply on my homeworld, as I make it *the* world for enemies to warp into; makes life much easier for cross-planetary attacks).

Probably not the best tactic having your HomeWorld the Warp destination -- look up Whipping Boys
http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Rate_Of_Expansion#Expanding_In_The_Early_Game

Yes a little , the 300 engine damage x 50 shots would go a long way toward slowing them down but it will only take 50 hits to kill the Black Widow

- Is this game salvageable at all with my current approach or should I change the general strategy? There are several Alarm posts (and other Counterattack posts - every P2 is something very nasty like Raid/Alarm/Counterattack) on the way to southern AI's base... and hopping through ~3~4 systems using transports might not be easy with such a density of class 3 and 4 planets.

with an AIP of 71 you have a lot of manuvering room.

- Any hints what could I do I haven't done yet (as a manner of explorations of possibilities; I don't mind losing a game if I learn something interesting)?

- Am I playing 'too slow' giving AI time to build up? I didn't have any problems with it yet, but I noticed assaulting some planets is very painful.

- Would neutering planets bordering my planets be a good move? As in: attack, destroy all guard posts, leave command center and warp gate, knowledge raid, forget about it? Or would it make AI reinforce other planets as the limit of units is not 'fulfilled' yet? I prefer planets nearby being strong to those other planets being strong.

- Is there a way to tell the turrets 'ignore those shield bearers, kill those blasted bombers'? Is right clicking bombers enough to make missile turrets prioritize those?

Units will normaly attack what they are best at. Selecting your turrets then a target will make them prefer that target 1st. You can hover over one of the turrets and the tool tip will indicate the prefered target.

- Would EMP mines be able to help here? I was using lots of normal mines, but enemy ships just flew through them without any visible damage; I guess Mark4 can do something like that :-).

EMP will stun them giving other units a chance  esp engine killers to immobilize them

[Irxallis]

Thank you very much for your responses.

Yes, I do have a save game from before the Counterattack Post. Before I destroy something I haven't ever encountered yet and I read about as being 'dangerous' I always save, so I can make sure I don't lose a campaign due to lack of my knowledge of 'what is it'.

I'd 'hide' it in an un-colonized system and then move it into position after the wave is declared

This also gives me an idea: I might consider destroying my own command station (for example, on the Zenith Gen world or on Advanced Factory world) if necessary before cracking a counterattack post to ensure the wave will not spawn into a wave multiplier world or something as crucial as Advanced Factory world (and rebuild the command station a moment later). I never thought of that, thanks. Unless I can't destroy a command station; will check it tomorrow.

I will have to take more planets, especially in 'the line' to planets close to AI homeworlds to ensure constant supply of units from Advanced Factory - I greatly dislike using transports to move units manually to the frontlines where unnecessary (unless this can also be automated - AI War managed to greatly surprise me in what is possible to get automated).

The warp counterattack had to come from Mad Bomber, indeed. Seems I will skip that world for a while and just enjoy buildup or hop this one. There are several great suggestions here and I will definitely try them out, but I need to expand a bit first.

I will also have to unlock EMP mines to see their efficiency eventually. Not for pure damage dealing, but for 60 seconds of reduced enemy efficiency.

Thank you for your information. This makes Golems useful, especially if I combined them with EMP on defense or with expendable ships on offense.

5 Mk2 elect warheads are required per batch of Zenith

Thanks. Seems if I destroy that counterattack post (when I am ready / if it is necessary) I can reduce their number a bit. I will also unlock Spider Turrets - I had no idea engine damage (as in: enemy unit spread) can be that efficient. Seems obvious, but I didn't think about it...

Probably not the best tactic having your HomeWorld the Warp destination -- look up Whipping Boys

For now I had no problem with making HomeWorld my main target of Warps and it helps in defending CPAs a lot (as most of them enter the Homeworld through the border and my turrets / mines can shred enemies to pieces). I agree that combination of Whipping Boys and Spider turrets/ships/Riot Starships might be a very efficient combination as well (if not superior to my current one); will need to check it out. Is the Spider thing the reason why HomeWorld shouldn't be the Warp target, or is it the fact waves grow and grow and eventually the Home Command Station might get destroyed?

400 Mk4 Zenith Bombers (...) are a temporary imbalance that won't be around by the time we have the next official version

Thanks for the information. I would stop those 'regular' bombers and if those 400 Zeniths are a bug it makes my life so much easier in the long run :-).


Thank you for your time, once again.

Yours,
~Irx

[Winter Born]

Thank you for your information. This makes Golems useful, especially if I combined them with EMP on defense or with expendable ships on offense.

Golems are getting rebalanced (stronger) as the developers get the chance. 4,0 and Guardians changed the landscape a lot.

5 Mk2 elect warheads are required per batch of Zenith

Use the REF tab to look at counters as it is automatically up to date for your game.
http://www.arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_STATS_Button_Overview


Thanks. Seems if I destroy that counterattack post (when I am ready / if it is necessary) I can reduce their number a bit. I will also unlock Spider Turrets - I had no idea engine damage (as in: enemy unit spread) can be that efficient. Seems obvious, but I didn't think about it...


Spider turrets, RIOT SS, Spider Bots, Ion Cannons, and maybe some others deal engine damage, which can spread them out/ keep them away from critical stuff.

Probably not the best tactic having your HomeWorld the Warp destination -- look up Whipping Boys

For now I had no problem with making HomeWorld my main target of Warps and it helps in defending CPAs a lot (as most of them enter the Homeworld through the border and my turrets / mines can shred enemies to pieces). I agree that combination of Whipping Boys and Spider turrets/ships/Riot Starships might be a very efficient combination as well (if not superior to my current one); will need to check it out. Is the Spider thing the reason why HomeWorld shouldn't be the Warp target, or is it the fact waves grow and grow and eventually the Home Command Station might get destroyed?
 

Having a Whipping boy as the destination for warps means more distance for them to travel while under attack. If the Whip gets overrun you are not automatically dead, but have space and time to counter attack. Defense in Depth is the military term, and tower defense games  rely on making the path as long as possible to give your defenses more time to work. I will some times put 2 mk1 ion cannons at opposite sides of my whip because the AI tends to attack them 1st - so the AI spends time and distance attacking something fairly ineffective against a large wave while the rest of my def is whacking on them. Same with sci labs as AI magnets.

Transports next to your worm hole can act as bullet magnets giving everything else more survival time to attack


But that is just one way to skin the cat. Lol

[Thank you for your time, once again.

Yours,
~Irx