Author Topic: Vengenance Generator Strategy  (Read 2552 times)

Offline Vyndicu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
Vengenance Generator Strategy
« on: February 25, 2013, 12:10:02 AM »
How do you deal with fallen spire ships once they spawn past critical mass? How do you take and hold a solar system with fallen spire without losing it? Do neinzul expiring (as opposite to dying to combat fire) contribute to reaching critical mass? Do allies ship dying contribute to reaching critical mass? Do wasps from hive golem dying contribute to reaching critical mass?

Do having regenerate golem in system prevent dying ships from contribute to reaching critical mass?

I had a game where dark spire was crushing my CPU with 50k roaming warships (10k spawned in a 16 min timeframe). That was on 5/10 dark spire and the exo-galactic fallen spire war fleet could not even break through the roaming dark spire ships to reach to me. Dark Spire ships were even attempting to take pot shots at a fortress in an AI core homeworld?! Although it was fairly suicidal for them however they had the number to keep the pressure on forever.

I was stuck and I could not expand outward without some serious firepower. My frontier planet has a dark sphere + spire city hub (Can't pick another solar system for spire city hub because of roaming dark sphere ships) I can kill and hold that one solar system even if it spawn 100 dark spire ships each 1 min. The presence of fortress and spire city hub guns, lot of neutral neinzul guardian, and last a hive golem keep it under control.

If dark spire already reached critical mass what can you do to keep them under control?

I attached the game and BEWARE you will lag a lot. I was very close with getting a 5th spire city hub for the spire victory. The colony ship is already built just need a way to hold the isolated solar system with spire city hub free of dark spire ships.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 02:10:52 PM by Vyndicu »

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Vengenance Generator Strategy
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2013, 08:20:44 PM »
Basically you have to avoid a runaway reaction with these guys.  Usually I hear about it happening on 10, though, a bit uncommon on 5.

Anyway, basically anything that dies on the planet counts towards the generator unless it died from the devourer golem or another enemy-to-all minor faction (that isn't Dark Spire).  If you have advanced logging on the dark spire log will tell you what gave it the points and how much per unit, etc.  It's possible something in your case was counting more than it should, maybe the wasps, though I think I handled their case.

I do need to give it some kind of release valve for spawns past a certain population to avoid it killing CPUs ;)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Vyndicu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
Re: Vengenance Generator Strategy
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2013, 10:13:05 PM »
Little late on the runaway reaction part for this game. I find out how to turn on advance logging OK. But I don't see anything where it talks about spawning logic.

Ahhh nevermind found it in the files. Apparently neinzul drones and bomber bay are contributing to reaching critical mass. At least in my dark spire system. I suspect that devourer golem may have trigger a much more massive response that is unrelated to the spawning from neinzul drone/bomber drones. I feel "bad" for AI not having anything in their tool kit to handle this massive horde. But then again not much I could do from my perspective beside turning devourer golem off with dark spire on.

I will do more testing later on to see if hive wasps do contribute to it.

Quote
3/4/2013 9:04:54 PM (6.010)
-----------------------------------
During on-death Dark Spire logic check, faction intensity set at 5; Game Time: 12:30:28
AccumulatedDeadStrength has reached 200.09, exceeding spawn threshold of 200, contributing deaths since last spawn:
114 BomberDroneII @ 0.39 each, so total for line = 44.09
5 NeinzulRoamingEnclaveHumanAllyWeasel @ 12 each, so total for line = 60
1 NeinzulRoamingEnclaveHumanAllyTiger @ 12 each, so total for line = 12
5 NeinzulRoamingEnclaveHumanAllyCommando @ 12 each, so total for line = 60
2 NeinzulRoamingEnclaveHumanAllyVulture @ 12 each, so total for line = 24
Dark Spire spawn response:
Spawning on planet Swoverko
baseStrengthForPlanet = this.AccumulatedDeadStrength / (FInt)10 = 5
isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier = (2 if the same planet as triggered this spawn, 1 otherwise) = 2
factionIntensityMultiplier = 5
strengthForPlanet = baseStrengthForPlanet * isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier * factionIntensityMultiplier = 50.02
This-Planet Spawn Summary:
1 DarkSpireAdvancedCombatShip @ 64 each, so total for line = 64
Planet total: 1 ships, 64 strength
Spawning on planet Asima
baseStrengthForPlanet = this.AccumulatedDeadStrength / (FInt)10 = 5
isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier = (2 if the same planet as triggered this spawn, 1 otherwise) = 1
factionIntensityMultiplier = 5
strengthForPlanet = baseStrengthForPlanet * isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier * factionIntensityMultiplier = 25.01
This-Planet Spawn Summary:
1 DarkSpireNormalCombatShip @ 32 each, so total for line = 32
Planet total: 1 ships, 32 strength
Spawning on planet Vuyipar
baseStrengthForPlanet = this.AccumulatedDeadStrength / (FInt)10 = 5
isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier = (2 if the same planet as triggered this spawn, 1 otherwise) = 1
factionIntensityMultiplier = 5
strengthForPlanet = baseStrengthForPlanet * isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier * factionIntensityMultiplier = 25.01
This-Planet Spawn Summary:
1 DarkSpireNormalCombatShip @ 32 each, so total for line = 32
Planet total: 1 ships, 32 strength
Spawning on planet Erasumrin
baseStrengthForPlanet = this.AccumulatedDeadStrength / (FInt)10 = 5
isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier = (2 if the same planet as triggered this spawn, 1 otherwise) = 1
factionIntensityMultiplier = 5
strengthForPlanet = baseStrengthForPlanet * isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier * factionIntensityMultiplier = 25.01
This-Planet Spawn Summary:
1 DarkSpireNormalCombatShip @ 32 each, so total for line = 32
Planet total: 1 ships, 32 strength
Spawning on planet Illa
baseStrengthForPlanet = this.AccumulatedDeadStrength / (FInt)10 = 5
isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier = (2 if the same planet as triggered this spawn, 1 otherwise) = 1
factionIntensityMultiplier = 5
strengthForPlanet = baseStrengthForPlanet * isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier * factionIntensityMultiplier = 25.01
This-Planet Spawn Summary:
1 DarkSpireWraith @ 5.19 each, so total for line = 5.19
1 DarkSpireNormalCombatShip @ 32 each, so total for line = 32
Planet total: 2 ships, 37.19 strength
Spawning on planet Savphi
baseStrengthForPlanet = this.AccumulatedDeadStrength / (FInt)10 = 5
isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier = (2 if the same planet as triggered this spawn, 1 otherwise) = 1
factionIntensityMultiplier = 5
strengthForPlanet = baseStrengthForPlanet * isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier * factionIntensityMultiplier = 25.01
This-Planet Spawn Summary:
1 DarkSpireCommandShip @ 240 each, so total for line = 240
Planet total: 1 ships, 240 strength
Spawning on planet Dresa
baseStrengthForPlanet = this.AccumulatedDeadStrength / (FInt)10 = 5
isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier = (2 if the same planet as triggered this spawn, 1 otherwise) = 1
factionIntensityMultiplier = 5
strengthForPlanet = baseStrengthForPlanet * isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier * factionIntensityMultiplier = 25.01
This-Planet Spawn Summary:
1 DarkSpireAdvancedCombatShip @ 64 each, so total for line = 64
Planet total: 1 ships, 64 strength
Spawning on planet Tadark
baseStrengthForPlanet = this.AccumulatedDeadStrength / (FInt)10 = 5
isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier = (2 if the same planet as triggered this spawn, 1 otherwise) = 1
factionIntensityMultiplier = 5
strengthForPlanet = baseStrengthForPlanet * isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier * factionIntensityMultiplier = 25.01
This-Planet Spawn Summary:
1 DarkSpireWraith @ 5.19 each, so total for line = 5.19
1 DarkSpireNormalCombatShip @ 32 each, so total for line = 32
Planet total: 2 ships, 37.19 strength
Spawning on planet Kilza
baseStrengthForPlanet = this.AccumulatedDeadStrength / (FInt)10 = 5
isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier = (2 if the same planet as triggered this spawn, 1 otherwise) = 1
factionIntensityMultiplier = 5
strengthForPlanet = baseStrengthForPlanet * isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier * factionIntensityMultiplier = 25.01
This-Planet Spawn Summary:
1 DarkSpireWraith @ 5.19 each, so total for line = 5.19
1 DarkSpireAdvancedCombatShip @ 64 each, so total for line = 64
Planet total: 2 ships, 69.19 strength
Spawning on planet Asigar
baseStrengthForPlanet = this.AccumulatedDeadStrength / (FInt)10 = 5
isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier = (2 if the same planet as triggered this spawn, 1 otherwise) = 1
factionIntensityMultiplier = 5
strengthForPlanet = baseStrengthForPlanet * isPlanetCausingSpawnMultiplier * factionIntensityMultiplier = 25.01
This-Planet Spawn Summary:
1 DarkSpireNormalCombatShip @ 32 each, so total for line = 32
Planet total: 1 ships, 32 strength
All-Planets Spawn Summary:
3 DarkSpireAdvancedCombatShip @ 64 each, so total for line = 192
6 DarkSpireNormalCombatShip @ 32 each, so total for line = 192
3 DarkSpireWraith @ 5.19 each, so total for line = 15.57
1 DarkSpireCommandShip @ 240 each, so total for line = 240
Grand total: 13 ships, 639.57 strength

Offline Vyndicu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
Re: Vengenance Generator Strategy
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2013, 11:01:33 AM »
Apparently wasp DO contribute to reaching critical mass. I will never use them again except in dark spire-less systems.

Removing bomber bay is easy enough from all modular forts and champion.

I would think that the 119 roaming neinzul guardian in my choke dark spire system is definitely not helping much because they can keep up to 800-1000 of each neinzul drone type. So short of a "forced" eviction of my neinzul guardians I am not sure what I can do to salvage the save game.

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Vengenance Generator Strategy
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2013, 12:03:42 PM »
Quote
3/4/2013 9:04:54 PM (6.010)
-----------------------------------
During on-death Dark Spire logic check, faction intensity set at 5; Game Time: 12:30:28
AccumulatedDeadStrength has reached 200.09, exceeding spawn threshold of 200, contributing deaths since last spawn:
114 BomberDroneII @ 0.39 each, so total for line = 44.09
5 NeinzulRoamingEnclaveHumanAllyWeasel @ 12 each, so total for line = 60
1 NeinzulRoamingEnclaveHumanAllyTiger @ 12 each, so total for line = 12
5 NeinzulRoamingEnclaveHumanAllyCommando @ 12 each, so total for line = 60
2 NeinzulRoamingEnclaveHumanAllyVulture @ 12 each, so total for line = 24
There's yer problem ;)

Note that the bomber drones don't really count for a whole lot.  Not helping, and you may want to avoid those kinds of "throwaway" units on dark spire planets, but they weren't the main culprit.  The main culprit was the ally-enclave squadrons, each ship of which was contributing an _enormous_ amount relative to the drones.  6.011 (which I'm getting out now) will have them ratcheted down near those bomber drones in terms of contribution to the vengeance generators.

Thanks for posting that :)

How much were the wasps counting for, by the way?
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Vyndicu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
Re: Vengenance Generator Strategy
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2013, 01:42:38 PM »
Quote
3/5/2013 9:52:15 AM (6.010)
-----------------------------------
During on-death Dark Spire logic check, faction intensity set at 5; Game Time: 12:36:35
AccumulatedDeadStrength has reached 203, exceeding spawn threshold of 200, contributing deaths since last spawn:
7 Wasp @ 5 each, so total for line = 35
11 NeinzulRoamingEnclaveHumanAllyCommando @ 12 each, so total for line = 132
3 NeinzulRoamingEnclaveHumanAllyVulture @ 12 each, so total for line = 36

Not a lot but I was releasing about 80 - 100 a time. They took their "sweet" time dying so as a result it doesn't show up much until their time expires all at once. I thought that they were you know free ships (free in that they don't cost you resource beyond the unit/power itself. Unlike shredders for instance.). Then they would not count toward critical mass apparently not. I did have a few engineer dying in the system and they didn't show up so it would seem that regen golem DO prevent normal ships from contributing toward critical mass. So they have a hidden purpose after all. :)

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Vengenance Generator Strategy
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2013, 02:08:59 PM »
Pesky wasps, I thought I'd dealt with them ;)  Will go check.
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Fealthas

  • Newbie Mark II
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: Vengenance Generator Strategy
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2013, 04:44:45 PM »
From what you are saying, I understand that vengeance generators only get "spawn points" from ships dying on the same planet. Is this correct?
I seem to have a vengeance generator which has spawned stuff, even when the planet had nothing die on it. Could nearby waves cause this?

 EDIT: Reading wiki says  "near the same planet" - so does it have 2 planet collection radius?

Offline keith.lamothe

  • Arcen Games Staff
  • Arcen Staff
  • Zenith Council Member Mark III
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,505
Re: Vengenance Generator Strategy
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2013, 04:47:46 PM »
From what you are saying, I get that vengeance generators only get "spawn points" from ships dying on the same planet. Is this correct?
Correct.
 
Quote
I seem to have a vengeance generator which has spawned stuff, even when the planet had nothing die on it. Could nearby waves cause this?
When a generator gets enough points to do a spawn, it does a full spawn.  BUT, any other generator in the game that has previously had a spawn also gets a half-strength spawn at the same time.

To put it briefly, chaos :)
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games? Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!