Author Topic: Various things  (Read 20550 times)

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Various things
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2012, 08:13:23 pm »
No no, far from it. While I'm still noob, i have roughly 30 hours of AI War in. I realize the concepts of destroying command stations only when i really need a system, trying to keep AI Progress low and stuff.
So far i didn't fire a single missile.
The 350 progress were made through a couple of station cleanings. Then i got 2 golems, cursed and armored. Then i accidently killed one co-processor. Found may 5 ressources caches and i believe 2 zenith ship holdings. When saying a few system, i think i have maybe 8 to 10 systems, with another 5 or 6 mostly neutered (i.e. everything including warp gate killed, command station left). I may have been forced to kill 1 or 2 BHGs, too.

Ah, Golems Medium.  That'll change EVERYTHING.  Yeah, AIP increase for Golems is rough.  Zenith Caches are really a nice to have when you've got a LOT of vig in your AIP.  It's a temporary gain for permanent increase.  And yeah, 13-15 systems isn't a few systems, you're right. :)  You should be prepping for the end run on the AI at this point though, and those last few worlds should be used for the stepstones you need to find and take them out.

What diff are you playing at, 7/7?  You shouldn't be completely stonewalled if you're that far in.  You should also have a NICE bank of research.  If you don't, go drive out to your neutral systems with a colony ship for some supply and research them out, then leave and blow the station up behind you and head to the next one.  You should be able to get a ship or three up to MK III (and thus, IV) that way, and get yourself a NICE fleet to support your golems without having to do much, if any, more AIP work.  Also, try to find the remaining CoPs, and get yourself a bit of a nudge back down on AIP.
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Offline Ragnarok

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Re: Various things
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2012, 08:21:19 pm »
I updated my post more exact numbers.

The problem is I'm still a LONG way away from the AI homeworlds. I got scout V and scouted the entire galaxy. From what I'm seeing, I'm still at least 15 systems away. Could i theory upload my savegame and ask you to kindly take a look at it for only 2-3 minutes ?

EDIT Save attached. Maybe someone with a bit of knowledge can tell me where and why i messed up. "My Layout" has a fixed and streamlined galaxy route.
thanks
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 08:26:52 pm by Ragnarok »

Offline Wanderer

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Re: Various things
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2012, 08:54:21 pm »
alright, let's see what we got here...

Start with AI HW pathing.  From Fudoorki you can take Demchr and crank Riboomshu to pieces.  Nothing particularly nasty on that one except the Core Booster.

Shlolusuc is another story.   You're part of the way there from Wayko.  Therharka is 5 jumps out but there's both 2 Data Centers along that run to help with AIP gains and you can survive the deep strike for a single system.  Just lay into the Cmd Center ASAP.  That gives you a jump point for Shlolusuc.  However, that Raid Engine's gonna mess you up a bit.

You're sitting on 18,000 K in research.  Upgrade to Bomber III, Frigate III, Bombard III, and get MK IVs of those producing as well.

Oh, here's part of the problem.  You never consolidated your wave defenses.  You've got wormholes EVERYWHERE against your systems.  You need a whipping boy, maybe two.  Get better control of where the waves inbound by blowing up the warp gates (NOT the command centers) against systems that you don't want to see attacked by waves.  That'll let you consolidate the majority of your static defences (Turrets and Mil stations).  You won't feel like you're constantly running everywhere to defend yourself.

Check out the wiki for more on whipping boys.

What else...  Hm, you haven't had a chance to really get at the ARS's.  You still need to hit 3 CSG-As.  I'd scout them first with Science IIs to see if you want to hack any of them, it doesn't look like you've hacked anything yet here...

Okay, personal opinion:
You're scattered all over the place and have no plan, at least one that's working.  Let's use Isinthether (homeworld) as an example.  A scattering of 9 mines won't protect you from anything over MK I, and certainly not against multiple ships.  Mines need to be laid in a line from point to point so they hit LOTS of them if you want to use them at all, or in massive fields on inbound whipping boy gates.  That 'field' at the inbound from Quonshlobang isn't big enough.  You're looking at 30-40 mines to take out most ships.

Next up, Planet selection.  You jump from Aeofallgio to Fudoorki.  That Z-Gennie gets you +10 AIP when it falls. It's got 4 warp gates still open against it where a wave could come in at you and you've got a smattering of defenders  That Z-Gennie's going to die.  Maybe not immediately, but eventually.  You've got neutral systems (Quonshlobang and Tusudon) that are completely protected by friendly planets that you haven't colonized.   You're missing out on resources, energy, and easier transport of units in what I'd consider a 'safe' area.  Did these get attacked recently?  Why'd they get past your 'edges'?

Alright, here's what I'd personally do.  First, you've outpaced your ability to engage in war, and the enemy has WAY too many holes to use to hit you from.  You started in a nice corner of the universe but didn't take full advantage of it, only partially.

Turn Wayko and Aeofallgio into the hardened edges of your shield.  Split your turrets between these two planets and leave Aeoyae and Roadzonurn with warp gates.  Pretty much abandon Fudoorki if you have to, but get some Science on it ASAP for the K.  Next, blow the warp gates on Ipginmel and Reworixu, then blow those systems to shreds (including all the Wormhole Guardposts to lower the # of chances they can spawn a warp guardian) while you build up turret defenses on your whipping boys Wayko and Aeofallgio.

Meanwhile, get colonists onto any 'protected' neutral system.  You've got 13 systems here, and plenty of firepower.  You need to look towards CSG-As and the ARSs, and the final takedowns.  But you can't do that until you've secured the backfield so your fleet can move.

Once you've nailed down the home systems and neutered the remaining systems in the backfield, move up the western front.  Next objective is not to try to hit the homeworlds, but to hit that last CoP and those two Data Centers (flip your galaxy map to Displaying: Detected AI Progress Reducers, near the bottom).  Take that last CP out at Yarko and then get the one in Umplu.  Then head up the eastern arm and hit the one at Foku.  The one at Gindu will cost you some deepstrike threat but some temporary pain for permanent reduction will be worth it.

Do NOT go near the one on Zarsharpvold until you've lowered the AIP with the rest of those.  That Raid Engine will trigger no matter how you approach it.  Meanwhile, your MK III/IV fleet should be building up and once you've done that, you'll be down around 240 AIP, have MK III/IV fleet ships, and be ready to chase down 3 of those ARS/CSG-As.  Once you have, go take out the Raid Engine first.

This is definately a winnable scenario.  You've got solid bones, but you've let the tactics stray all over the place.  Reconsolidate yourself.  Keep each goal simple.  Don't have too many goals at once.  At 8:30 you're just half-way to two-thirds into a game.  I've ran them long before myself, some maps just take a while, particularly ones like this where you end up with long choke stretches.

There is nothing else on this map you need to do besides consolidate the defenses, take the AIP down with the CP/DCs, knock over the CSG-As, and beat the AI HWs.  You've got everything else you need.
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Offline Ragnarok

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Re: Various things
« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2012, 04:00:59 am »
That is an interesting view.
I may have a question or two now.

Basicly, a few systems are "empty" without command stations because i figured they were not worth any effort at all. I'm thinking i do not colonize systems unless they have a) at least 4 asteroids or b) something important like zenith power, or production stuff.
Do you colonize every system, even if it only has 2 asteroids (assuming its "inside" your save layer and not outside, i.e. you dont need to protect it).

In addition, I'm having some problems with ressource drain. Is there a way to get a view/menu/something to see which systems are draining the most ressources at this point ? A way to find assisting engineers, golem repairs or something like that ?

Thanks a lot (!) for your time in checking the game out.

Offline Mánagarmr

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Re: Various things
« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2012, 04:31:27 am »
If you've blown up a command center in a system, there's 0 reason not to colonize it. You literally have nothing to lose and all to gain on colonizing a system. If only to put up an economic station.
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Offline Wanderer

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Re: Various things
« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2012, 05:47:50 am »
That is an interesting view.
I may have a question or two now.
LOL, won't be the first time that statement's been made to me...  :D

Quote
Basicly, a few systems are "empty" without command stations because i figured they were not worth any effort at all.
Going to simply stop you there.  The only time a system's not worth the effort is if you needed something from it and then it was still under threat from the enemy.  Those systems aren't under any form of threat, you've just let them idle.  Even a 0/0 system with an econ station nets you bonuses.

If you have to defend it or it can cost you even 5 AIP for blowing a single warp gate, then it's something to decide.  Those are free systems.


Quote
In addition, I'm having some problems with ressource drain. Is there a way to get a view/menu/something to see which systems are draining the most ressources at this point ? A way to find assisting engineers, golem repairs or something like that ?

Stats, Resource Flows, then click to sort:







Thanks a lot (!) for your time in checking the game out.
[/quote]
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Offline Ragnarok

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Re: Various things
« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2012, 09:25:36 am »
Oh my. Why does this board not have a "thanks" button.

Offline amethyst

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Re: Various things
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2012, 02:21:56 pm »
How do you deal with a combination of camouflaged and cloaked units? I am apparently playing against a Camouflager AI, and one of my systems has six camouflaged Eye Bots hanging out, invisible despite a Mk III military CC. My understanding is that it's intentional that tachyon beams don't penetrate camouflage... however, I am at a loss as to how I should reveal and clear out these buggers if they don't attack by themselves.

Offline Bognor

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Re: Various things
« Reply #83 on: July 08, 2012, 09:28:18 am »
How do you deal with a combination of camouflaged and cloaked units? I am apparently playing against a Camouflager AI, and one of my systems has six camouflaged Eye Bots hanging out, invisible despite a Mk III military CC. My understanding is that it's intentional that tachyon beams don't penetrate camouflage... however, I am at a loss as to how I should reveal and clear out these buggers if they don't attack by themselves.
I think a Spirecraft Attritioner should damage them, if you have Spirecraft available.  Eyebots have low heath so they should fall in a reasonable time.  Otherwise, they're probably not a huge deal - I often have cloaked raptors or whatever lurking in my systems, but they don't seem to cause problems.  Six Eye Bots would take a very long time to take out a Mil III station.
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Offline amethyst

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Re: Various things
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2012, 02:53:57 pm »
I don't consider them a serious threat, but they do require me to manually rebuild the harvesters on the planet whenever some wandering threat comes in and pops some of them. :) So it's more of a question of convenience at this point.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Various things
« Reply #85 on: July 12, 2012, 11:15:39 am »
How do you deal with a combination of camouflaged and cloaked units? I am apparently playing against a Camouflager AI, and one of my systems has six camouflaged Eye Bots hanging out, invisible despite a Mk III military CC. My understanding is that it's intentional that tachyon beams don't penetrate camouflage... however, I am at a loss as to how I should reveal and clear out these buggers if they don't attack by themselves.
I think a Spirecraft Attritioner should damage them, if you have Spirecraft available.  Eyebots have low heath so they should fall in a reasonable time.  Otherwise, they're probably not a huge deal - I often have cloaked raptors or whatever lurking in my systems, but they don't seem to cause problems.  Six Eye Bots would take a very long time to take out a Mil III station.

Well, camouflage units currently take the appearance of space junk, so you can try looking for debris floating around where it doesn't seem like there should be. (IIRC, the only place you can find "real" debris is near metal and crystal points)


If you don't have the spirecraft enabled, or you don't have an attritioner to spare, you can try a detonating lightning warhead near where you spotted the camouflaged units. (Unless what is camouflaged is immune to area damage, in which case you are kind of hosed. I've already made a mantis post about that.)

However, I'm not sure how that would interact with cloaking units. The AI tends to keep cloaking units in stand-down mode (formerly low-power mode), so they don't reveal themselves by firing until they get to their target, if they feel it is safe to make an approach to their target (if they don't they may try to retreat. If they don't think they can retreat successfully either, then they will just sit their, in stand-down mode, cloaked you until you reveal them or they feel its safe to attack or retreat). This means that even if you get close, they might not fire and reveal themselves (like normal, non-cloaked ships, which the AI will have fire upon stuff when you get close)

Offline amethyst

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Re: Various things
« Reply #86 on: July 12, 2012, 11:31:46 am »
Well, camouflage units currently take the appearance of space junk, so you can try looking for debris floating around where it doesn't seem like there should be. (IIRC, the only place you can find "real" debris is near metal and crystal points)

Ooh, good point, I forgot about that. I'll try looking for those at maximum zoom. So far, those eye bots have done nothing but sit there for the last two hours or so of game time, so even if I don't find them, I'll just leave them sitting there and manually rebuild harvesters as needed.

This seems like a unique problem with units having both cloaking and camouflage, though. None of the other camouflaged units of the AI have lingered like that - they usually came out to attack after a short period of time once I moved the fleet away from the planet again.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: Various things
« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2012, 12:31:36 pm »
Well, camouflage units currently take the appearance of space junk, so you can try looking for debris floating around where it doesn't seem like there should be. (IIRC, the only place you can find "real" debris is near metal and crystal points)

Ooh, good point, I forgot about that. I'll try looking for those at maximum zoom. So far, those eye bots have done nothing but sit there for the last two hours or so of game time, so even if I don't find them, I'll just leave them sitting there and manually rebuild harvesters as needed.

This seems like a unique problem with units having both cloaking and camouflage, though. None of the other camouflaged units of the AI have lingered like that - they usually came out to attack after a short period of time once I moved the fleet away from the planet again.

Yea, how the AI currently handles cloaked units is rather iffy or even buggy. They are cloaked but stuck in hostile territory, supposed to go on the attack or the retreat when they feel safe to do so (or when they get damaged or decloaked, but they wake up reliably in those cases), but oftentimes, they don't, and just sit there anyways, even when things are wide open. This is EXTREMELY annoying.

Not sure if there is a mantis post about this, but there should be.

Offline PokerChen

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Re: Various things
« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2012, 12:16:43 am »
Right, so when I'm hacking a Camouflager super-terminal and there's a few hundred mark-V "space-junk" floating around the planet, the only practical solution (without Spirecraft) is Lightning Warheads - which is incidentally counter-productive since I'm trying to reduce AIP. :D

Offline Ragnarok

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Re: Various things
« Reply #89 on: July 18, 2012, 04:52:40 pm »
Yay, its me again.

- How can you "search" the known galaxy for systems with Data Centers, CoProcessors or the hacking data centers thingies ? Can you ?
- I pressed some buttons and now i dont see system names on the galaxy anymore, but instead i see the number of ships (enemy) present. How can i revert this change ?
- If i dont know where my fleet is, is there some way switch the system names to the number of ships on the planet (see one question above, but my own ships).

thanks