Author Topic: Unpleasant surprises.  (Read 4579 times)

Offline Black

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Unpleasant surprises.
« on: January 16, 2010, 04:18:06 pm »
The game has some unpleasant gotcha's related to unit interactions.

Frigates are listed as 100% against electric shuttles, meaning they should take few losses from them in a fight.

But shuttles get a massive bonus against them, for some reason. I lost 400 frigates to less than a dozen shuttles. Great! Thanks for telling me about that, game :\

Offline Spikey00

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2010, 04:25:50 pm »
Yeah, the unit vs statistics aren't always accurate.  =\
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Offline x4000

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2010, 09:00:14 pm »
Well, they are accurate, but at range, and with homogeneous types of ships.  The unit statistics literally record the results of an encounter between equivalent numbers of those ships when they start at a distance and rush at each other.  In those cases, the frigates slaughter the electric shuttles before the shuttles even get near them.

Where the uncertainty comes in is with mixes of ships.  If there is something that the frigates are even better at killing than the electric shuttles, then they'll tend to attack that first, giving the shuttles more time to get in range and fire off shots.  Or, if the frigates come our of a wormhole right on top of some electric shuttles, that can also be really bad news.

So the statistics are "right," but only in a limited sense -- that's all they can ever be, by nature of the fact that they are just a single percent and time number.  (For those taking notes, this is the same sort of over-simplification that led to the real estate market crashing the US).  In other words, those single numbers are a rough guide, and tell you the truth under a very specific set of circumstances.  As a guide, if you know what the circumstances are (now you do), they are very useful for helping you predict the outcome of engagements, but they are not foolproof.  Tactics matter, as does position, as does ship mix.  So that's where on-the-fly judgement comes in, and sometimes you have to learn the hard way from failing miserably with one mix (my AAR from last night demonstrates me losing badly against my own AI, because of underestimating the potency of a specific ship mix in the hands of the AI).

I guess it boils down to the fact that you can't boil something so complex down to one or two numbers like this.  But, taken for what they are, these one or two numbers are very useful -- they just aren't the end of where you should be looking.

Some general notes:
-With frigates or other long-range ships, you can assume that they will perform much worse at closer range, because their enemies will actually be hitting them.

- For very fast ships, using "kiting" and other similar tactics can make them perform better than their stats would indicate by them staying out of range.

- For ships that do area damage, obviously they are more effective against groups of enemy ships.  But, for ships that do a small amount of area damage over a very large area (like electric shuttles), stacking a lot of them in one area will make them much more effective than small batches, since they might well kill all of their foes in one go.

- For ships with explicit stacking abilities, such as autocannons, those can become more powerful than their stats would indicate by grouping the max of them together.

- For ships with stacking penalties (electric bombers and sentinel frigates), those have an ideal number per planet (two or three, usually), and then degrade -- to a point.  Past that point, they don't get any more penalty and so they start becoming collectively more powerful again.  Often the AI uses them past that point, whereas it is better for humans to keep them below the first degration point.

- For ships with multi-shot abilities, they are certainly better against groups of enemy ships.  But, pair those with munitions boosters and they can really do some damage because they are doing more damage to a group of targets, rather than way-overkilling their single target like many other boosted ships will tend to do (of course, boosting helps any ships against hardened targets with a lot of health).


In conclusion
I'm sure there are some other general rules of thumb, as well, but they all boil down to logic and thinking about the mechics of any given ship.  Given the number of ships and the number of possible interrelationships, you won't think of everything in advance -- that's expected, and happens to me as well.  The main thing to remember here is that if you come up against an unexpected result of an encounter, there is a reason and you can figure out that reason just by looking at the board to see what might be going on in this specific scenario.  Then you can assess, decide how to respond, and appropriately handle that situation with your newfound knowledge about that specific setup.  That's a big part of the game, honestly, even for expert players -- I'm the designer and programmer, and I still have to do that, because all of those complex interrelationships can lead to some unexpected fruits.

This was a good discussion -- I'm moving it to strategy discussion to make sure others can peruse it if they are inclined.
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Offline Black

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2010, 12:03:56 am »
I think I didn't get a detail across.

My frigates died nearly instantly to the electric shuttles, and their ranges aren't all that disparate. It was surprising to find that electric shuttles, which aren't priority targets of frigates, would one or two-shot them if they got in range, which isn't that hard. I think I'm going to try a few scenarios.

Offline Lancefighter

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2010, 01:33:22 am »
the problem isnt 'electric shuttle instakills a cruiser', the problem is 'massed electric shuttles have enough area of effect damage to instakill anything within its range'
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Offline belgarath

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2010, 11:15:03 pm »
No no no no no, I can corroborate this.  Electric shuttles now MURDER frigates.  I don't know what kind of bonus it is that they get, but a SINGLE tech one electric shuttle can now >>>2<<< shot an ENTIRE cruiser swarm. 

T1 shuttle attack power is listed at 400, but a SINGLE t1 shuttle now does >>>16 THOUSAND (!)<<< damage  to all frigates within considerable range. D:  This problem is not present for other ship types that I know of.  Fighters and Bombers, for example, take normal damage.

Even if shuttles are 'strong' vs cruisers, considering the expense of building cruisers, this sort of damage bonus is wildly excessive.

This is triply confusing, since cruisers are listed as 100% strong vs shuttles.

In searching for this thread (happy to find that it already existed) I found several other threads where shuttle 'fixes' are requested, but I think this is the problem that most severely limits playability.

Offline Kjara

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2010, 11:35:56 pm »
Shuttles did get a buff recently, anyone with access to the spreadsheets(aka anyone who can run the game..I'm at "work" currently) want to generate and see what multiplier they have against cruisers?

Offline x4000

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2010, 11:54:00 pm »
You know what?  In this specific case, I do believe that the sim data is out of date.  I think that shuttles may have gotten a boost nearish the end of the 3.0 testing cycle, and that the sim data was never regenerated for them.  So, that would explain this, if that's the case.  I will re-run the sim over night tonight and see what shakes out of it.
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Offline belgarath

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 12:07:56 am »
found another ship, the z-bombards also get one-shot by the shuttles... also disheartening considering THEIR expensiveness as well

Offline Kjara

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2010, 06:46:00 am »
For those interested, below is the electric shuttle multipliers:

2 Constructor, 40 Frigate, 4 Command Station, 4 Heavy Defense, 10 Parasite, 10 Vampire, 4 Force Field, 40 ZenithBombardment*, 40 SentinelFrigate*, 4 Command Station Core, 40 ZenithBeamFrigate*

Shuttle 1 thus does 32 000 (fd) to all cruisers
Shuttle 2 does 96 000 (fd) to all cruisers
Shuttle 3 does 160 000 to all cruisers

Each of these does enough to 1-shot all cruisers of the same level.  Really those multipliers need to be toned down now that they got a damage increase :).  It currently makes it so you can't use frigates if the ai has shuttles.



Offline Amonchakad

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2010, 08:34:30 am »
Kjara, where did you find those multipliers? I can't find them in-game anywhere, and I think they are really important for understanding which ships are actually effective against which others.

Offline x4000

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2010, 11:34:02 am »
Kjara, where did you find those multipliers? I can't find them in-game anywhere, and I think they are really important for understanding which ships are actually effective against which others.

If you hit F3 in the game, then Ctrl+Shift+F8, it spits out a variety of Excel xml files into the Data folder under the game directory.  That includes ShipDataFull.xml, and ShipDataStatsOnly.xml, which is the data he's referring to.
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Offline Amonchakad

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2010, 12:32:11 pm »
Kjara, where did you find those multipliers? I can't find them in-game anywhere, and I think they are really important for understanding which ships are actually effective against which others.

If you hit F3 in the game, then Ctrl+Shift+F8, it spits out a variety of Excel xml files into the Data folder under the game directory.  That includes ShipDataFull.xml, and ShipDataStatsOnly.xml, which is the data he's referring to.


Thanks :)

On a side note, would it be possible to have those values on the ship's info in-game, or at least somewhere more easily accessible? I think that knowing them is a crucial part of the game: as a newbie, I've wondered in the last days why some ships where doing so much(or so little) damage at other types.


EDIT: I managed to create said files, but for some reason ShipDataFull.xml is totally empty. I'm using 3.0.1.2.
Also,what are the files AgainstBasic.xml and StrongWeak.xml?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 01:21:00 pm by Amonchakad »

Offline x4000

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2010, 01:44:57 pm »
If ShipDataFull.xml is empty, perhaps it has to do with the version of Excel you are using?  I'm not sure -- how large is the file created?  Mine is about 900kb, I just ran it.  Open Office supposedly works great for opening these, if I recall.  I've used Excel 2003 and 2007, myself.

StrongWeak is how many ships the ship is strong against, versus weak against, at each level.  So if the numbers are very much out of line, then on paper at least the ship is unbalanced.  In practice, some ships that do area damage or whatever are stronger than they appear from this, so I use it only as a rough guide when balancing ships.

AgainstBasic is which out of the trio of Fighter, Bomber, Frigate the ship is weak against.  That way I can check to make sure that preferably all ships have at least one weakness, but not three, amongst the basic ships.  Here again this is a rough guide, a few ships with special mechanics (Electric Bombers, for example) I discount this for a bit.

Regarding having these in the game, that's not really something that I see as being a value.  I've written about this at great, great length elsewhere, but the point is that these raw numbers are super misleading.  Just because something has a big bonus against something else, or a penatly for that matter, does not mean it is or isn't the best ship for the job.  All of the ranging, special abilities, speed, reload speed, etc, all has an enormous impact on ship performance versus other ships, and I intentionally keep these internal multiplies available-but-obscure because they are so misleading even if you are great at math.  They consistently lead people to wrong assumptions about how ships will perform.  I use these bonuses and penalties in response to specific situations where I want to tweak balance, and that data is manifested in the actual in-game performance stats (which were out of date for electric shuttles in 3.0-3.012, so were misleading, but other than that are the best guide).
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Offline Amonchakad

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Re: Unpleasant surprises.
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2010, 03:38:34 pm »
I'm using the latest OpenOffice version, and the file is 927k large. I tried generating it again, in different situations, but it still shows as an empty excel sheet.