Trouble breaking a level 3 planet

[arthurp]

I'm having a lot of trouble breaking (either to simply take or to neuter) a level 3 planet. I will go it with 1700 ships (level 1&2 but still) and I loose most of this in the first few minutes. I can't figure out how to break this planet. I've tried like 5 times now (reloading from a save game).

All I can come up with in that the lightning turrets and the lv3 tractors are really raping me. The lightning missiles help a lot but I can't hit every cluster with them and the clusters rebuild really quickly once I kill them.

I have been mostly just bringing in my big wad of ships and then group moving them near a target (but outside of most of the ranges) and then charging at full speed. So far it's the best thing I can come up with.

Also I think my economy is kinda broken. I'm just not sure what to do.

I have attached the save game in case anyone has the time and inclination to look at it and give me advice. (BTW the game is in the new V3 format but I started the game under V2, in case that matters)

I'm kinda brain dead right now so sorry for not having very good commentary on what I have been doing. I'm just looking for any hints people may have. I'm kinda frustrated with this. I think I will start a new game.

Thanks.
-Arthur

[HellishFiend]

1700 ships failing against a mk 3 world? Sounds like you may be going up against an interplanetary munitions booster. Have you scouted all surrounding worlds linked to the one youre attacking?

[arthurp]

I'll check for boosters. But I don't think there is one.

Oh one important thing I didn't mention. The level 3 planet has been building up for a bit. So it has around 600 lv3 ships on it.

I guess there is a more general question here: very roughly how many lower tech ships does it take to match a ship one tech level up?

[HellishFiend]

Ok, so I took a look, and the problem is that:

-Most of your ships are autocannons and infiltrators, so 1700 ships suddenly isnt quite that many.
-The mk3 world has an ion cannon on it.
-You aren't using the right tactics to try and take the planet

It's obvious you cant take that planet the normal way, so you have to go about it with hit and run or guerrilla attacks. I attached a save where I took out the command station and survived the counterattack, leaving you to mop up the rest of the planet slowly and without fear of reinforcements. I could have done it much more efficiently, too, but I made several mistakes (poor use of the lightning warheads) and was successful anyway.

[HellishFiend]

I'll check for boosters. But I don't think there is one.

Oh one important thing I didn't mention. The level 3 planet has been building up for a bit. So it has around 600 lv3 ships on it.

I guess there is a more general question here: very roughly how many lower tech ships does it take to match a ship one tech level up?

At least several, depending on the ship types. But more importantly, you can NOT match the power of the defensive garrisons on that planet with your current forces/economy, which is why you need to use hit and run/guerrilla or attrition in order to take it down.

[Lancefighter]

yes he has, and there arent any.

What he needs to do - aggrivate them all enough so that they raid YOUR world. Trust me, it works (read, i just did it in your save)
Keep in mind those light starships TRIPLE the size of your fleet if you can keep them alive.

Your biggest problem however, are the lightning turrets. It looks to me like you have let them accumulate for a while - that is whyt he planet is so full of ships.


What i did, more or less step by step-

Send all lightning missiles through wh, pause when you see them

Send one against the turret cluster on the wh, send the others against all the other turret clusters en route to the ion cannon. Make sure you send one against the cannon itself.

After those start hitting, MAKE SURE YOUR FLEET IS READY TO DEFEND. as soon as that happens, all their ships will pour through the wh looking for revenge. Kill them all.

Then, jump your fleet in and start ransacking everything .Since all the ships have already left the planet, its relative safe to kill the command station first (no turret remains/wormhole reinforcements)

From there, just wipe  the floor with them. Ignore the special forces outpost until later.

[arthurp]

Thanks a lot!

But a quick question: Do you mean that the turret trash and rebuilder thing only works while the command station exists? I've had a lot of trouble with turrets coming back to life and kicking my ass. I've taken to bringing a small swarm of cleaners with my fleet to reduce that.

I'll try things with the advise you guy gave tonight (late) and then post an after action here.

Thanks again.

[Lancefighter]

correct - without the command station, turrets do not drop remains.


However
Destrying the command stations usually sends all the ships on the planet to attack your planet. Its a risk vs reward thing

I find that bringing 3ish cleanup drones, and setting them to FRD mode on the planet you are attacking is the best answer; you usually can kill their rebuilders if you wait for them a little bit at the wormhole you start from...

[eRe4s3r]

Light starships do not tripple your fleet size, they multiply it by 5 (ie 5 times more damage)

But Infiltrators and ac's are not part of a fleet ever (They both are entirely useless in a flow moving fleet), fighters, bombers, cruisers, more long range, more hard hitters, no melee ships is what makes a good strike fleet. When you munition boost your fleet you should have about 800-900 combat ready MK1 and MK2 and maybe 1 class MK3 (usually best to go cruisers for that) then you can take down pretty much ANY planet, even if it has 1000 MK3 ships on it (clearing the wormhole is then of course, the problem of autobombs/missiles)

What the nice forum geeks here described is the so called "fire sale" tactic, you destroy the enemy command station and retreat for the counter attack, once its over you take out the ion cannon and mop up the remaining guard posts. Sadly the AI decides that staying behind sometimes is more fun But once the reinforcements stop you have basically won.

Its important to note this

1) Never ignore an alerted IV or III world next to you at the beginning, later on you can afford 1000-2000 ships on a planet like that and still sail through with minimal losses but at the start every MK3 ship is one too many.

2) Damage boosters, Use them. Every single multiplier doubles your effective fleet size (and MUCH more, if you fight against ships below your MK rank) for example having core ships munition boosted gives you a MASSIVE advantage over the ai.

3) Did i mention to never leave your home without Damage boosters? More damage means less losses for you. Its the most important part of AI War (currently, anyhow ,p)

[Cydonia]

Light starships do not tripple your fleet size, they multiply it by 5 (ie 5 times more damage)

Rly? Oh you should have told me earlier. The light starship always appeared so weak to me, I seldom used it. Now, I'll alwys take them with me! 

[I-KP]

You need all of your the Light Starships in one place to achieve x5 though, not just the one.  Dare I say it but I think they're a bit over-buffed now.  Starships always were the weapon of choice over Fleet ships but now they're entirely indispensible.  Hugely munitions-boosted fleets were relatively rare (requiring the Munitions Booster units to really max out that potential), now they're a permanent fixture and as a direct result the value of the Munitions Booster units (and like capable captureables) has been reduced considerably.

[Lancefighter]

Light starships as a unt also got a nice buff - triple the health, from what I remember. Nowhere near fleet starship range, but cheap as hell comparatively, and all 5 of them in a fleet is nice.

However, a stiff breeze still knocks them over fairly well... Without the support fleet, they are useless. I'd still take a single flagship over 5 of them any day.

[I-KP]

Yeah, forged out of coffin nails they are not.  I was more pointing out the now obligatory munitions boosted fleets (which used to be rare, or at least only fractional) and the knock-on effect of reducing the value of the Munitions Booster-style assets.  Since the Fleet Starship buff the Munitions Boosters have dropped to a second rate special choice in my games (which generally means they only get chosen if they happen to be on a rather sweetly placed planet).

[RCIX]

You need all of your the Light Starships in one place to achieve x5 though, not just the one.  Dare I say it but I think they're a bit over-buffed now.  Starships always were the weapon of choice over Fleet ships but now they're entirely indispensible.  Hugely munitions-boosted fleets were relatively rare (requiring the Munitions Booster units to really max out that potential), now they're a permanent fixture and as a direct result the value of the Munitions Booster units (and like capable captureables) has been reduced considerably.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... we like them the way they are!

[Lancefighter]

I kinda do agree - munitions boosted fleets are a tad much. Therefore, I believe the light starship should receive a 50% nerf to its fleet boosting abilities. 1k range is /still/ 4x what it used to have, and it makes /actual/ fleet starships a better plan..

my problem is actually that I dont even use a support fleet most of the time. My fleet literally is my fleet starships. Support is called in for those niche times when its needed, mostly for long-distance power projection (teleporters are good, space planes or raiders do the job as well), or taking down forcefields (did i mention raid starships suck at that now? :\ )