To nuke or not to nuke, that is the question. (also, ship hacking)

[Smithgift]

I don't have access to my save at the moment, so bear with me as I attempt to describe my situation.

This is not my first game, though I've never won (outside of the tutorial). Mostly I've been learning important elements of tactics, such as "When your main Homeworld defense is a Mark I fortress, an incoming wave of bombers is not something you can safely ignore" and "Leaving the Threat in the thousands is hazardous to your health."

Base game only, using Beginners Setup Script 2 (AI 7/7, simple ships only).  I'm ~9 hours in, have scouted every planet, have an Advanced Factory and several fabricators. AIP is around ~240. The AI is down to two A-Prime core shield generators. Planet Unwise-Decisions-Made, with one ARS, is three jumps away from my territory, while Planet Unreasonable-to-Reach with the other remaining ARS, is, as the name suggests, ten or so jumps away.

The name of Unwise-Decisions-Made comes from my bright idea to try ship design hacking for the first time. Well, actually, I tried twice but reloaded my save when I discovered that it's harder than it looks. So my next bright idea was to assault the planet, destroy everything but the command center/wormhole posts, and then bring along Mr. Ship Design Hacker with my full fleet. The problem, of course, was after doing the former it summoned the entire 3000-strong Special Forces fleet to the planet. And now it's not leaving, leaving me with a conundrum.

So, ideas:

I could try to reach Planet Unreasonable-to-Reach in a feint to summon the SF fleet there. While technically possible, it would be obnoxious. Then again, Planet U2R is close to the second AI homeworld, so I guess I'd be heading there anyway? I don't know.

Secondly, I thought I might try nuking Planet UDM, given that I'd be destroying what appears to be the entire special forces fleet. I'm leery of the dire warnings attached to nukes, and wanted to consult with more experienced players before risking it.

Thirdly, in a similar idea, I noticed that the fleet is in more or less a giant ball around a wormhole, and I could theoretically lightning warhead them. I don't know how useful that would be, though. (I've never used lightning warheads before.)

Fourthly, I'm actually within striking distance of the first AI's homeworld. If I attack (mostly futilely, as I can't kill any guard posts), will it summon the SF fleet to defend it, leaving me room to take Planet UDM?

BONUS QUESTION: How is ship design hacking even possible? If not the zombie horde, it's the special forces coming to murder your face. I haven't even hacked a single point of knowledge before this, so I doubt it's the response level.

BONUS BONUS QUESTION: I seem to have a different approach to fleets than the posts I've read. I usually set all my docks to auto-repeat, perpetually reaching my ship cap, and building a massive, thousand+ fleet of doom to smash an AI's planet's face in. Am I doing it wrong?

BONUS BONUS BONUS QUESTION: Does one typically lose command centers frequently to waves, or have I not set up my whipping boys properly.

[Draco18s]

How much hacking progress do you have?

BTW, nukes are really are a poor option for 90% of everything.  Yes, you CAN nuke the planet, but:

1) Any mark 5 units will survive
2) Any starships will survive
3) While you can capture the ARS with a command station, that's about all the command station will do.  No supply, no resources, no knowledge, nothing but capture buildings.  You will in fact need to keep it to destroy the CSG as well, but after that it's doing Jack and Squat for you.  You won't even be able to use the planet as a staging ground for an assault on the homeworld (and would then want another planet to capture).

For all that, it's probably more effective to lob lightning warheads through the wormhole.  Less AIP, more benefits.

Also, if you're not using enclave starships, spend the knowledge to get them.  The drones will add firepower and the AI will occasionally target them instead of your units (i.e. if the drones are the only thing in range).

[Bognor]

Welcome to the forums, Smithgift! 

BONUS QUESTION: How is ship design hacking even possible? If not the zombie horde, it's the special forces coming to murder your face. I haven't even hacked a single point of knowledge before this, so I doubt it's the response level.

I'm pretty sure the special forces have nothing to do with your hacking.  When you attack certain worlds the AI cares about - generally those with CSGs, including ARS worlds - all the special forces ships head straight from their rally point to that world.  The faster ones get there first.  It helps if you can use Riot Control Starships or other methods to string them out, so you can take on a few at a time.  It's probably best to deal with them before commencing your hack.

You don't have any Special Forces Guard Posts on your worlds, do you?  Every such post increases the special forces' cap by 5%, which may explain why you've got so many.  Or maybe it's just the high AIP, I dunno.

BONUS BONUS BONUS QUESTION: Does one typically lose command centers frequently to waves, or have I not set up my whipping boys properly.

I don't.  Have you checked out Kahuna's Guide?  Some tips are to use some combination of Tractor Turrets, Grav Turrets, EMP Mines, or Riot Control Starships to slow down and separate incoming ships; to use Military Command Stations and/or Flagships to boost your turrets; and to use mines to weaken or destroy fleet ships.

[Smithgift]

UPDATE!

No warheads were used, because I discovered you can't transport them. And, in the time it took to start clearing a path to the planet in question, the SF had already gone its merry way. The second attack seized the planet, along with a ship hack. This was also a good thing, because I found the route to the second AI homeworld was completely blocked by this planet.

On further reflection, the problem with hacking was caused by the threat fleet attacking my relatively undefended territory while my main fleet was away. I hadn't thought the whole whipping boy thing through (in fact, to be honest, I don't think I have any).   

FURTHER ADVICE REQUESTED:

As it happens, I'm within four jumps of the first AI homeworld, The other AI homeworld is ten+ jumps away. Should I assault the first homeworld first, then fight my way to Homeworld 2, or fight my way to have easy access to both and THEN attack both? I figure the former would allow me to fight a homeworld with a small AIP, but I'm honestly not sure.

Also, beachheading an AI homeworld: Good idea, or better not?

[Lord Of Nothing]

Unless you have Lazy AI on, the AI homeworlds have a lot of their defences levelled on the assumption that you have around 200AIP- taking one on with significantly less may be easier in terms of defending the other parts of your empire, but I should imagine the homeworld itself will be pretty much like trying to demolish a brick wall with a feather.

You're probably better off conquering your chosen path to the second homeworld first, for the extra strength it will gain your fleets.

[Smithgift]

Actually, my AIP is around 280, so I should have said "relatively" small AIP. I've heard a normal game tends to finish with 600~ AIP (is this accurate?) so that's why I was wondering.

[Toranth]

Actually, my AIP is around 280, so I should have said "relatively" small AIP. I've heard a normal game tends to finish with 600~ AIP (is this accurate?) so that's why I was wondering.

If you are playing with the Fallen Spire campaign, or setting up for a Showdown finale, 280 is nothing to be concerned about.  However, it sounds like you are in a basic, no specials game.  In a normal game, it depends on difficulty level and your playstyle.  To me, 280 AIP is an endgame level.  At that AIP total, I've done everything I'm going to do before attacking the AI Homeworlds and ending the game.  Some players prefer careful surgical strikes, and will have AIP at 100-150 right before attacking the AI HWs.  On the other end of the spectrum, some people prefer huge fleet battles melting the CPU, and might have 400 AIP during an AI HW attack.  But 600 AIP in a normal game is very unusual.

Generally, lower AIP is easier than higher.  Even though gaining AIP usually means you are getting a reward, the AI's response also increases.  At a high enough level, you'll just be overwhelmed.  The Special Forces, for example, have a size cap based on the current AIP total.  Higher AIP means for SF ships to deal with.


If your AIP is 280 in the midgame, you should probably ask yourself a few questions: 
Have you been looking for and using the AIP Reducers (Data Centers, Coprocessors, SuperTerminal)?  If not, try finding these as a high priority. 
Have you been capturing planets that you don't need?  Each planet you capture is at least 20 AIP.  If the system has little-to-no resources, or uniques (like Fabricators) that you want, then ask yourself if you really need to capture it.
Have you been Warp Gate raiding a lot?  Gate raiding is a good way to protect systems you capture, but if you find yourself gate raiding 2-3 times for every new system, perhaps you should ask yourself if you really need that system (point 2 again) and do your really need that system to be completely protected.  Some minimal defenses to hold off the wandering AI units backed up by a mobile fleet to hold off waves can save you a lot of AIP from not gate raiding.
Have you been using lots of warheads?  Despite Faulty Logic's sig, you should consider warheads an emergency measure.  If you find yourself needing to use warheads a lot, it may be a sign that you are letting AIP get too high.

If you feel like it, post a saved game.  Plenty of people will be willing to look at it and give (possibly conflicting) advice.

[Lord Of Nothing]

It sortof depends on the game and difficulty, but 600AIP is not what I would consider the norm any more- that's very high, now, under standard settings. The homeworlds themselves aren't getting much stronger  at this point- what you've got to watch out for is the rest of the AI aggression getting stronger. If the AIP floor is enough lower than AIP actual to absorb the core guardposts being destroyed, the definitely kill them first before carving your way to the next homeworld, since the exo-galactic attack forces they will produce will be a pain to defend against if there's already trouble on that front, and that trouble will only get worse with more AIP. As for actually killing the AI home command station, if you can wipe out everything else, there's not much motivation to kill it until after the second homeworld, IIRC.
So, my approach would be:
Kill all core guardposts, and any other structures that are protecting the home command station, on the first AI homeworld.
Carve route through to second homeworld and repeat.
Kill home command stations on both AI homeworlds.

But this may vary depending on circumstances.

EDIT: First part explained much better by Toranth.

[Smithgift]

Have you been looking for and using the AIP Reducers (Data Centers, Coprocessors, SuperTerminal)?  If not, try finding these as a high priority. 

I think I have five DC left. My usual experience is that raiding them tends to lead to high-level ships going on threat. I suppose that's better than constant high AIP, so I will endeavor to do so. 

Have you been capturing planets that you don't need?  Each planet you capture is at least 20 AIP.  If the system has little-to-no resources, or uniques (like Fabricators) that you want, then ask yourself if you really need to capture it.

I think I've taken a few too many. One was a path to a world containing two fabricators one of which was for raid starships (I love raid starships). I think I've taken a few others carelessly.

Have you been Warp Gate raiding a lot?  Gate raiding is a good way to protect systems you capture, but if you find yourself gate raiding 2-3 times for every new system, perhaps you should ask yourself if you really need that system (point 2 again) and do your really need that system to be completely protected.  Some minimal defenses to hold off the wandering AI units backed up by a mobile fleet to hold off waves can save you a lot of AIP from not gate raiding.

I've been barely gateraiding. This may be causing some of my issues.

Have you been using lots of warheads?  Despite Faulty Logic's sig, you should consider warheads an emergency measure.  If you find yourself needing to use warheads a lot, it may be a sign that you are letting AIP get too high.

Haven't used a single one.

If you feel like it, post a saved game.  Plenty of people will be willing to look at it and give (possibly conflicting) advice.

Here you go. Like I said, this is the farthest I've got, so I may be a little (or more than a little) new at this.

[Faulty Logic]

Ok, I looked at your save. Here's what I would do:

Kill all the Data centers. With assault transports/raidVs it should be easy. Scrub the threat fallout.

Don't go near the core or homeworlds for a while.

Take the space tank, then Elec shuttle/Zenith starship fabricators on your way to the fifth ARS. Take the fifth ARS. This will incur deepstrike, but killing the enemy command centers quickly will minimize it. Build your caps of electric shuttles and space tanks and put them in cold storage. Build your core zenith starship. Then, don't worry about holding either of those worlds.

Unlock Riot starships mkII and III.

Go on a mad hacking rampage. There's a core bomber fab in easy hacking range (you could also hack for the space tank fab instead of taking its planet). The melee fabs aren't as attractive, but fabricator hacking is pretty cheap. Download a couple designs from the AI, then spend the rest of your hacking progress on covert knowledge extraction.

Once you have a strong enough fleet, make sure you have relatively easy access (a tachyon-sentinel-free path will do) to both AI homeworlds, and attack the near one, carefully. Each core post you destroy will send a smallish attack against your home planet, so don't commit your entire fleet. Take your time, and colonize the first homeworld. Then you can either do a similar procedure for the second, or just throw your entire fleet at it.

And for when things start to go wrong, my signature.

[Smithgift]

I tried attacking the data centers and got most of them, but I ended up summoning the Strategic Reserve, which ended badly. Also, the threat counterattacks tend to destroy my beloved raid V starship fabricators. That same planet has a captive human settlement to make attacks on it even worse. I think next time I'm going to try beefing up my defenses before killing the far data centers.

Also, what is cold storage?

[Faulty Logic]

Also, what is cold storage?

It just means don't use the ships to fight. Any planet out of the way will do. Bring them out again when you're ready to attack the AI homes.