Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more

[keith.lamothe]

Roger that. So staying at 10 AIP for hours while sending extermination patrols of Sentinel Frigates with friends to locate and destroy all AIP reducers within convenient range before starting to expand is not in the cards when Hybrids are active.

It depends on how bad the hybrids are, and how much the map lets them chokepoint you.  But a few hundred hybrids at the gates when you've just got your one homeworld's worth of K and such probably isn't very healthy, no.

Some people camp at 10 AIP for a long time, though it seems more popular nowadays to go up to maybe 100 or 150 AIP and then pop all the datacenters (and possibly the coprocs) to get back down to the floor, or some interleaved progression similar to that.

they all had alarmingly high stats, but focusfired by an entire fleet from a prepared position left them no chance to excel.

Yep, such is the fate of most anything in a many-to-one encounter in this game.  Even the largest stuff needs screening forces to be effective.

Dire Guardian production starts. The player isn't notified in any way.

About an hour (or 30 minutes, I forget) out from actually generating a dire guardian the timer will show up in your alert box.  It's not a nobody-expects-the-spanish-inquisition feature

From now on, the Dire Guardian Lair continues producing Dire Guardians, one after another, until such time as it is destroyed, regardless of the alert status of its planet.

It shouldn't do that, though I've heard reports of them having long memories (i.e. might be a bug)

So, was my caution justified and this is how it works and, regardless of what the answer to that question is, are we talking minutes, tens of minutes, or hours to produce Guardians?

Something like an hour and a half, iirc, total per guardian.  In other words you don't need to be nearly so cautious as long as you're prepared to deal with the things when they spawn.  Letting a bunch ball up with other threat might be... contraindicated.  On the other hand, by the time you have FS exo-class defenses a few stray dire guardians won't be much of a bother.

In fact, they probably need a buff

Though when I finally get around to the general stat-rescaling (dividing health and attack and whatnot of all non-superweapon stuff by, say, 100) that will help them as well.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Dire Guardian production starts. The player isn't notified in any way.

About an hour (or 30 minutes, I forget) out from actually generating a dire guardian the timer will show up in your alert box.  It's not a nobody-expects-the-spanish-inquisition feature

Okay, so advance warning when it is incoming just like CPA's and waves. Thank goodness.

From now on, the Dire Guardian Lair continues producing Dire Guardians, one after another, until such time as it is destroyed, regardless of the alert status of its planet.

It shouldn't do that, though I've heard reports of them having long memories (i.e. might be a bug)

Now, that is pleasant news. Alerting a DG Lair while on the route to take out some other early objective will only generate one guardian in the fullness of time, not a steady stream, so long as the lair is left alone off alert afterwards.

So, was my caution justified and this is how it works and, regardless of what the answer to that question is, are we talking minutes, tens of minutes, or hours to produce Guardians?

Something like an hour and a half, iirc, total per guardian.  In other words you don't need to be nearly so cautious as long as you're prepared to deal with the things when they spawn.  Letting a bunch ball up with other threat might be... contraindicated.  On the other hand, by the time you have FS exo-class defenses a few stray dire guardians won't be much of a bother.

No, and given the time schedule indicated, it sounds as if alerting a lair by the time I expect to be reasonably able to deal with a single one of them (with warheads if nothing else), while certainly something to do only after deliberation rather than frivolously, is within the range of the acceptable, so I can turn down the paranoia a bit and - thank God - not spend so much time on painstakingly removing enemy defenses one planet layer at a time, once I have a basic defensive setup.

It sounds like lairs are much less dangerous than their description hint at... Then again, maybe the AI just want me to think that, to catch me off guard. I envisioned a steady stream of killer machines, not a single one ever hour or two. 

In fact, they probably need a buff

That's more like it!

[Peter Ebbesen]

Next questions:

When I perform a deep strike, I get the message that the AI is gathering threat. What does this actually do?

• Release existing ships from guard duty to threat across the galaxy? (I.e. merely a change of role for existing ships)
• Spawn new ships to add to threat/threatfleet somewhere?
• Something else entirely?

The Threatening Eye says that it actually generates new threat ships somewhere in the galaxy, but the deep strike's message says gathering, so if it doesn't actually generate additional ships, I may have to stop being so paranoid about deep striking.

[keith.lamothe]

When I perform a deep strike, I get the message that the AI is gathering threat. What does this actually do?

It's spawning new threat ships on an AI HW somewhere.

The Threatening Eye says that it actually generates new threat ships somewhere in the galaxy, but the deep strike's message says gathering

That Eye's mechanic is actually really similar to the deepstrike one

so if it doesn't actually generate additional ships, I may have to stop being so paranoid about deep striking.

Oh, it does generate additional ships.  That said, the actual amount is such that a quick hit isn't going to wreck your defenses unless something else big is going on.  Basically just keep an eye on the threat counter.

[Peter Ebbesen]

When I perform a deep strike, I get the message that the AI is gathering threat. What does this actually do?

It's spawning new threat ships on an AI HW somewhere.

[/quote]
Eeeek!

So not only is it generating extra ships and assigning them to threat, it is generating mk. V ships? (Due to generating them on an AI homeworld)

[keith.lamothe]

I don't remember if they're MkV.  I think they're just current-tech-level.

[Peter Ebbesen]

I don't remember if they're MkV.  I think they're just current-tech-level.

In THAT case, I shall fear no deep strikes. Given the absurd number of special forces roaming this particular galaxy, what's few hundred or thousand extra tech-level ships between friends?

[Peter Ebbesen]

So, as purely hypothetical question..

Let's say that I've got

Fallen Spire charging (X%)
CPA incoming in t1
6,068 incoming AI1 ships to P in t2
2,470 incoming AI2 ships to P in t3

where P is a chokepoint, a spire hub, and the only way the AI has to get to the homeworld and another spire hub, so that's definitely where the EXO will head, and this changes to:

Incoming EXO synchronizing with Fallen Spire (t4)
6,068 incoming AI1 ships to P in t4
2,470 incoming AI2 ships to P in t4

For the sake of argument, let's further assume that the CPA has, oh, I don't know, 8226 ships.

Does this mean that the CPA acts like usual, but just happens at the same time (i.e. synchronizes timing only, not target; doesn't dare attack anywhere unless the AI thinks it has a chance), or does it mean that there'll be ~8.5k incoming at P at t4 and EXO accompanied by 8.2k ships incoming from the exo warp spawn points?

[keith.lamothe]

Does this mean that the CPA acts like usual, but just happens at the same time (i.e. synchronizes timing only, not target; doesn't dare attack anywhere unless the AI thinks it has a chance), or does it mean that there'll be ~8.5k incoming at P at t4 and EXO accompanied by 8.2k ships incoming from the exo warp spawn points?

The only thing that "synchronizing" thing changes is the launch time of the exo.  Specifically it goes for 90 seconds after the CPA launch, iirc.

The size and behavior of the CPA and normal waves will be unchanged, as will the size and behavior of the exo.

That said, expect pain.

[Peter Ebbesen]

This was,

a) a completely hypothetical scenario,
b) unfortunately, the reason it was completely hypothetical is because the scenario I am facing is worse: I left out the 2K counterattack-post (III) wave hitting the homeworld at 1m 5s before t4.

If it it is merely time synchronization of all four activities, I am less worried. For a moment there, viewing the dismal prospect of 16k+ attacking together with the exo, I wondered if my stock of lightning warheads would suffice or whether I'd have to break out the big stuff.

[keith.lamothe]

If it it is merely time synchronization of all four activities, I am less worried.

Yea, it's actually just a temporal thing.  The exo tries to line up with the CPA, and the waves try to line up with the CPA (they don't really notice each other).

For a moment there, viewing the dismal prospect of 16k+ attacking together with the exo, I wondered if my stock of lightning warheads would suffice or whether I'd have to break out the big stuff.

I've considered having part/all of some CPAs use exo-like logic (the "charges blindly for a specific unit, stopping only for death" stuff) but it's probably best left in the hands of the normal threat logic as that allows for a broader range of player deviosity.

[Mad Rubicant]

If it it is merely time synchronization of all four activities, I am less worried. For a moment there, viewing the dismal prospect of 16k+ attacking together with the exo, I wondered if my stock of lightning warheads would suffice or whether I'd have to break out the big stuff.

Well, what tech level are you at? It took 55k mark 3 ships to destroy my homeworld with a (pre-patch) cap of all turrets, all forts and mod forts, a gravity network, and all the trader goodies. Even with the Exos, I would imagine you'll be fine.

[Peter Ebbesen]

If it it is merely time synchronization of all four activities, I am less worried. For a moment there, viewing the dismal prospect of 16k+ attacking together with the exo, I wondered if my stock of lightning warheads would suffice or whether I'd have to break out the big stuff.

Well, what tech level are you at? It took 55k mark 3 ships to destroy my homeworld with a (pre-patch) cap of all turrets, all forts and mod forts, a gravity network, and all the trader goodies. Even with the Exos, I would imagine you'll be fine.

I am fine, they've now been defeated, and I am only at tech level 2, 450 or so AIP. I was not worried about losing there, but about whether I'd have to break out my armoured warheads or could make do with normal defenses + fleet + lightning warheads.

The main difference between our games in terms of defensiveness is that I do not have the trader goodies or champion stuff enabled (due to the challenge Keith gave me), so no snazzy mod forts apart from the human one, no radar jammer II, no planetary armor booster/inhibitor, superfortress, etc. to aid in the defense, which makes for a considerably weaker chokepoint, as I know from my recent 7/7 win, where a chokepoint with those toys easily ate up 11k indvidiual waves without any support whatsoever, and ate up waves of 240 nemesis frigates when supported by my fleet.

Which in effect means that I got very little feel for the upper limit of those defenses, though reading your AAR has now given me a definite upper limit! It sounds like you had a very fun but also very rough time!

Also, rather than the 8/8 SFC+SFC setup you went with, Keith gave me a 9/9 SFC/Bouncer + Mad Bomber/Reservist setup. The Mad Bomber waves, in particular, are vicious beyond their numbers due to the focus on various bomber types and bomber starships and getting extra starships - and their numbers are bad enough.

I can warmly recommend the SFC/Bouncer combination if you want to play with even more special forces while at the same time enjoying the emptiness of the systems you neuter.

EDIT: Fixed a few typos.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Question: Do munitions boosters stack with flagship boosts or it is just the greater of the two that is applied?

EDIT: Okay, that was lazy of me. Tested, and it appears that the greatest of any relevant attack boosting effect (flagship, munitions booster, military station) is applied. So greatest difference between munitions boosters and flagships is that flagships affect a larger radius while munitions boosters have a greater attack boost, making deploying both together only a small upgrade over deploying only one of the types if you've got both access to both at roughly the same mark level, or for covering larger forces.

[keith.lamothe]

Question: Do munitions boosters stack with flagship boosts or it is just the greater of the two that is applied?

The greater of the two.

Bear in mind that a single booster can only boost a certain number of ships, and larger ships take up more of that capacity.

So mixing flagships and boosters is often useful just to make sure you get complete coverage of an offensive force.  Plus redundancy for casualties. 

For defensive forces a military station probably handles your munitions boosting needs.