Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more

[Peter Ebbesen]

picking a bonus ship type that has high base damage and/or bonus to heavy damage (just in case)

Keep in mind that Hybrids' shields have Structural hull type and you will have to destroy the shield before you can destroy the Hybrids.. unless you use something like Infiltrators which are Immune to Force Fields. Infiltrators are probably the number 1 Hybrids killers. They're good at destroying Guardians and Flag and Leech Starships too. And they're cheap as dirt! Also you can use Normal Transports as cannon fodder. Send them first to absorb the alpha strike. Assault Transports are more tanky and have guns but they're more expensive.

Ah, see, that I didn't know. I never did figure out how exactly shields protected in my 7/7 win, as such knowledge turned out to be surplus to requirements. So I should either use something immune to force fields, something that does high damage against everything, or a combination of things that do high damage vs. respectively Structural and Heavy.

The use of normal transports to absorb damage I did find, mostly by accident. The AI can be rather silly at times. Alternatively the AI is playing fair and doesn't realize that I'm using empty transports to absorb alpha strikes.

And Cloaker Starships are just plain wonderful for so many things, I guess it shouldn't surprise me that they are good for warheads too.

[RockyBst]

For hybrids I'd recommend Martyrs. Or lots of lightning warheads, seeing as you're trying to keep to a relatively sensible amount of information overload from new ship types. Either one will quite happily remove 1/200 hybrids from existence. Not exactly trivialisation, but those can make the diff 10 hybrids considerably easier.

Then again I'm probably not the best person to talk, seeing as my current game has just put all the minor factions on the highest difficulty to see what happens.

With regards to the slow-and-steady threat clearance, there are three options I'd suggest. First and most obviously is not playing on an X-type map or other easily controllable one. Lots of people love them, but I rarely do anything other than 'Realistic' due to just that inclination to turtle up. In particular, it's very hard to cut off the threat fleet or special forces and stop them linking up.

Second is turning on Spire civilian leaders, which are ten structures randomly seeded throughout the galaxy which increase your AIP once per hour. Those force you to be a bit quicker at scouting, and a bit more proactive about raiding and pushing out into the AI worlds.

Third, and easiest, is just turning on AI auto-progress. Spending hours clearing up local threat becomes less of a worthwhile endeavour while the AI is gaining 20 AIP an hour

It's the flexibility to turn on options like these to counteract your own habits and shake up the thinking a little which makes AI War the game it is.

EDIT: And while I'm thinking about it ... those warp gates you left in your under-defended hinterland? Yeah, the exos are probably going to spawn from there.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Memo: Despite having killed dozens of hybrids without any problems on one side of a choke point, 50 hybrids attacking my home command station with some ~250 friends 1h 12m after start coming from the other side should not be ignored on the grounds of "there being so few that the defenses will easily kill them". In addition to fighters, bombers, and missile frigates, they might be bringing along 50 lightning torpedo frigates, which is 12.5 caps with the low unit cap scale I'm using.

It sure was pretty. 240 torpedos in flight when the command center died. I now respect lighting torpedo frigates and hybrids.

Time to start anew.

[keith.lamothe]

Yea, if hybrids get their hands on the right (or wrong, from your perspective) low-cap ship as an underling type, they can quickly transition from nuisance to lethal.

[Kahuna]

Lightning Torpedo Frigates really should be considered "Fast Drone" ships so they could be disabled like the Spire Blade Spawners.
BTW

[Aklyon]

Not particularly fast compared to enclaves or the others, but certainly a drone-type ship.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Memo: EMP guardians will follow you home if you piss them off rather than staying nicely in the deathtrap of a system you encountered them in and fled. 4m 30s paralysis of homeworld defenses is bad news when it coincides with an enemy wave. For the future, should I piss off EMP guardians and be unable to defeat them in the system I encounter them in, I will make damn sure to to hunt them down before they reach home.

Well, I learned my lesson. From now on, apart from not letting EMP guardians live, I'll always keep lightning warheads on standby. Just in case I get surprised by yet another game mechanic. More AIP is a small price to pay for living to fight another day and learning more before having to restart.

On the positive side, this is the sort of gaming experience I was looking for, something where I can do fairly well without feeling that I'm hitting a wall and still be bludgeoned or outright defeated by lack of knowledge of game mechanics, rather than the easy victory I had on 7/7, so I'll have to say, Keith, that apart from that little detail with Hybrid intensity (no, I am NOT ready for 10/10 there, 6/10 suits me quite fine for now), you were entirely right to tell me to go to 9/9 with special forces/bouncer and mad bomber/reservist (and without the Zenith Trader goodies that trivialized defense).

The overall difficulty level feels about right while learning the mechanics and having to deal with large special forces, nasty bombers, and having one AI throw in reserves on any planet that is more than marginally valuable, does make for an interesting change for the better.

[keith.lamothe]

Oh yea, EMP guardians are the stuff of legends.  Mainly the "my species' apocalypse" sort of legends, but you can't have everything.

Glad to hear you're enjoying it   And yea, the AI Type mechanic (particularly dual-types) does allow for a lot of variety in precisely how one is abused.

[Peter Ebbesen]

So, at around 430 AIP, with my fleet at full readiness, the last CPA completed, threat weeded out, no waves incoming, warheads in reserve, and with an entire cluster of 20 stars united behind me, I build the first Spire Hub, fairly confident that I'll be able to handle whatever monster wave the AI throws at me. (Yes, you know where this is going, and you are right...)

My prepared defenses include all level 1 and 2 forts set up to cover a shooting range together with a host of turrets (including all beam turrets), a carpet of mines (all three types), a multitude of forcefields, a stockpile of Lightning Warheads, and a fleet that mostly consists of mk. I-IV bombers, missile frigates, and infiltrators. As well as Neinzul Railpod V's and AutoBomb Is and Zenith Siege Tower Is, and, of course, the basic starships. I've used 4 or 5 of the lowpowered Lightning Warheads prior to this to weed out merry bands of hybrids and solve other minor problems and I am a believer. 

I don't have any superweapons apart from the 4 Spire Frigates that the Refugee outpost provides as this was to be a "spire only superweapon game", but the AI didn't get the memo.

I begin building, and the AI promptly sends in two Armoured Golems, an Artillery Golem and a bunch of smaller things that aren't really worth mentioning in the same breath, though of course they do plenty of damage on their own. (I think I also saw a Regenerator Golem there somewhere, but I won't swear to it. Things got a bit hectic.)

Let's just say that the AI appreciated the recent Golem buffs. I nearly made it but... not quite. Without superweapons, those Armoured Golems sure are tough to take down.

Well, difficulty 9 is supposed to be very hard, that particular exo wave is probably exceptionally hard to get the players attention and tell him that now the AI means business (like the text says), and the AI defeating the player is working as designed. So nothing to it but to start again with a new plan.

Thus my questions:

• Does the Fallen Spire campaign exos scale in a major way with AIP? In other words, did I shoot myself in the foot by building up so much before I built the first hub?
• Would attempting to stop Golems with Armoured Warheads rather than Lightning Warheads do the trick? Lightning Warheads are capped in the amount of damage they can deal per target, as I found out to my disgust, but Armoured Warheads do not seem to be.
  
• Has the exo budget cost for Golems been adjusted for their increased power or is it considered a fair trade - more power in the hands of the player (when enabling Broken Golems) and more power in the hands of the AI (when the Zenith expansion is enabled and exos are populated, regardless of whether the player uses Broken Golems or not)?
• Other hints on how to defeat a bunch of Golems without superweapons?

I like the many interesting shiptypes the Zenith expansion added, especially those bombardment ships and electric bombers the Mad Bomber is throwing at me and the Auto Bomb, but I must admit I'm about ready to chicken out and disable the expansion for the next game or enable either the Zenith Trader, Broken Golems, or a Champion to help balance the scales. Well, either that or start building arsenals of both Lightning and Armoured Warheads, if it turns out - as I expect - that the answer to defeating Golems without superweapons is to throw Armoured Warheads at them with reckless abandon rather than Lightning Warheads.

..For a moment there during my desperate defense, it was just like playing Nuclear War, the 1989 sleeper hit by New World Computing. Warheads flying in all directions. Not a bad thing!

---

Oh, and a minor typo bugreport: both Lightning and Armoured Warheads have tooltips that misspell devastation in the line "wave of devestation".

[keith.lamothe]

(Yes, you know where this is going, and you are right...)

Not many people survive their first hub-construction, though not many people have built all the things beforehand, either.

Does the Fallen Spire campaign exos scale in a major way with AIP? In other words, did I shoot myself in the foot by building up so much before I built the first hub?

430 did sound a bit high, but iirc it doesn't impact the size of those exos at all.

Would attempting to stop Golems with Armoured Warheads rather than Lightning Warheads do the trick? Lightning Warheads are capped in the amount of damage they can deal per target, as I found out to my disgust, but Armoured Warheads do not seem to be.

Yep, Armored Warheads are now specifically designed for dealing with large single target stuff (though they'll happily mop up a crowd of riff-raff if that's all that's in range).  They don't have a per-unit cap and they start with the big stuff, rather than the small stuff.

Has the exo budget cost for Golems been adjusted for their increased power or is it considered a fair trade - more power in the hands of the player (when enabling Broken Golems) and more power in the hands of the AI (when the Zenith expansion is enabled and exos are populated, regardless of whether the player uses Broken Golems or not)?

Iirc I did bump them up a couple exo-cost tiers along with the buffs, but perhaps they need another bump or two.  I'll bump them up 1 more for the next version and we'll see how it goes.

Other hints on how to defeat a bunch of Golems without superweapons?

Other than armored warheads, I'd say: remember that in this game no one unit can survive truly massive weights of fire.  The Int32 datatype just doesn't allow for it (until a future rescaling is done, anyway).  Though against armored golems you'll definitely want to use armor-piercing stuff, or possibly stuff that actually strips armor off.

..For a moment there during my desperate defense, it was just like playing Nuclear War, the 1989 sleeper hit by New World Computing. Warheads flying in all directions. Not a bad thing!

The AI doesn't let on, but it has a soft spot for massive explosions.

Oh, and a minor typo bugreport: both Lightning and Armoured Warheads have tooltips that misspell devastation in the line "wave of devestation".

I always make that error, though usually I catch it; thanks.

[Peter Ebbesen]

(Yes, you know where this is going, and you are right...)

Not many people survive their first hub-construction, though not many people have built all the things beforehand, either.

They should! (build all the things beforehand, that is). The journal entries advises the player to pick a place to fortify heavily. Given that all the other fun activities outside your home system have caused an immediate AI action, and given the nature of the game where warnings are few and far beween and danger is everywhere, the rational thing is to heed the warning.

Yep, Armored Warheads are now specifically designed for dealing with large single target stuff (though they'll happily mop up a crowd of riff-raff if that's all that's in range).  They don't have a per-unit cap and they start with the big stuff, rather than the small stuff.

Armoured Warheads it is, then.

Has the exo budget cost for Golems been adjusted for their increased power or is it considered a fair trade - more power in the hands of the player (when enabling Broken Golems) and more power in the hands of the AI (when the Zenith expansion is enabled and exos are populated, regardless of whether the player uses Broken Golems or not)?

Iirc I did bump them up a couple exo-cost tiers along with the buffs, but perhaps they need another bump or two.  I'll bump them up 1 more for the next version and we'll see how it goes.

Don't bump them up further just because of my report, please. Given that I didn't try hitting them with the right counter - what's a little extra AIP between friends - it is entirely possible that they are in a good place. This is difficulty 9, not 7.

Other hints on how to defeat a bunch of Golems without superweapons?

Other than armored warheads, I'd say: remember that in this game no one unit can survive truly massive weights of fire.  The Int32 datatype just doesn't allow for it (until a future rescaling is done, anyway).  Though against armored golems you'll definitely want to use armor-piercing stuff, or possibly stuff that actually strips armor off.

Both of which were, alas, in rather short supply. My choice of Infiltrator, though wonderful for destroying targets in heavily fortified AI systems, just didn't cut it against Armoured Golems, not even with Missile Frigates and Bombers in support. Perhaps Sentinel Frigates next, though they do seem rather cheesy.

[keith.lamothe]

They should! (build all the things beforehand, that is). The journal entries advises the player to pick a place to fortify heavily. Given that all the other fun activities outside your home system have caused an immediate AI action, and given the nature of the game where warnings are few and far beween and danger is everywhere, the rational thing is to heed the warning.

Well, sure, but it doesn't generally occur to them that "fortify" means "build an empire big enough to win most games normally"

Of course, mere victory is not the goal here, but Conquest.

Don't bump them up further just because of my report, please. Given that I didn't try hitting them with the right counter - what's a little extra AIP between friends - it is entirely possible that they are in a good place. This is difficulty 9, not 7.

It's not just based on your report, so I do want to try the different costs.  Can always bring them back down if the Humanity Extermination Index drops too much.

Perhaps Sentinel Frigates next, though they do seem rather cheesy.

They are pretty trollish, yes, but when the AI starts throwing golems then cheese gets real.  And Warheads are basically weaponized Neutronium-Limburger

[Peter Ebbesen]

One question, though. Does Hybrid activity vary with AIP, such that the Hybrid threat is less while at low AIP, or is it essentially an AIP independent mechanism of Hybrids spawning and growing fully on their own schedule?

[keith.lamothe]

One question, though. Does Hybrid activity vary with AIP, such that the Hybrid threat is less while at low AIP, or is it essentially an AIP independent mechanism of Hybrids spawning and growing fully on their own schedule?

Iirc (and the code seems to agree) that AIP doesn't factor into the rate of hybrid spawning, maturity, drone production, etc at all. 

In general they're more of an early-game threat than a late-game one, but they're good for keeping one on one's toes.  They used to be able to build more spawners (and turret clusters and ff-nets) but that kind of got out of hand.  Though I do hope to bring that back at some point, in a less runaway fashion.

[Peter Ebbesen]

Roger that. So staying at 10 AIP for hours while sending extermination patrols of Sentinel Frigates with friends to locate and destroy all AIP reducers within convenient range before starting to expand is not in the cards when Hybrids are active.

...Which admittedly makes for some very smelly cheese, but it was kind of an obvious idea.


Next up, Dire Guardians. Last attempt I avoided getting anywhere near them, not risking any combat even on neighbouring planets, until I had overwhelming forces (at around 200 AIP), at which point I swooped in, cleaned the local space of opposition, destroyed the Guardian lair, and wiped out the three Guardians that spawned with an alpha strike. This worked well for all three lairs I encountered, but it sure took some time to set up just right and it left me with no real impression as to how guardians are in practice - they all had alarmingly high stats, but focusfired by an entire fleet from a prepared position left them no chance to excel.

Not moving any military to any planet unless all its neighbours had been scouted and declared free of Dire Guardian Lairs was a bit tedious, but made for an interesting strategic challenge. I do wonder, though, whether I was taking caution too far; Their tooltip says that they start producting Dire Guardians when its planet is "put on alert or taken", so I acted on the assumption that it worked like this:

• The Dire Guardian Lair's planet is put on alert, for whatever reason, great or small.
• Dire Guardian production starts. The player isn't notified in any way.
• From now on, the Dire Guardian Lair continues producing Dire Guardians, one after another, until such time as it is destroyed, regardless of the alert status of its planet.

So, was my caution justified and this is how it works and, regardless of what the answer to that question is, are we talking minutes, tens of minutes, or hours to produce Guardians?