Author Topic: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more  (Read 9941 times)

Offline IIE16 Yoshi

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Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« on: May 05, 2014, 06:18:38 pm »
I've only been playing for a few hours and am in an X shaped map where I aim to control one arm of the X, which is about a third of the map's total planets. I thought it'd be fun to push against the onslaught through the arms of the X once AIP got to MkII or MkIII after taking my own arm of the X.

That's beside the point, though, after nearly getting wiped by a reprisal fleet of some thousand or so ships and ~10 starships and resign myself to the fact that I'm going to lose that shiny MkV sniper turret builder because of human marauders despite saving scumming many a times, I'm now left wondering if I should be worried about the Threatfleet, seeing as it's at ~8k strength right now, there's a "Cross Planet Attack" of about 500 ships due and a regular raid fleet of about 1500 (because 1000 wasn't enough to do the job) is due in much less time.

What is the Threatfleet? Is that what's due to come in the next raid fleet? It appears to be ships that I've woken up, from what I can gather. I wiped my fleet trying to take a MkIV planet, AI even commented on it which I assume is a bad thing and just barely survived the 1000 ship raid. Is Threatfleet all the ships I disturbed at that MkIV planet now getting ready to maraud my systems?

What's a Cross Planet Attack? Is that a fleet that's just gonna wander through systems? The wiki tells me nothing on neither of these things and assumes I know what they are.

I know what the Reprisal fleet is, that's me wiping on their planets and them using the scrap to build ships to throw back at me.

Are there ways to intercept the next raid fleet or do they just pewf into existance on the planet they're raiding at an enemy wormhole?

I would love to know more things, like are there more ships like the Neinzul Enclave ships, are there quicker ways to get the champion to a destroyer and beyond, is there a reason to take a different bonus ship other than the immense support provided by Sentinels or Snipers, is the AI bothered if you get a bunch of friends simply playing as champions, Bouncer AI seems incredibly good to play against as it helps to get the champion up and running and into nebulae much faster thanks to all posts being replaced with ones worth killing, is there ever a reason to zoom all the way and look at the near-random artstyle that I am now expecting in an Arcen Games title...

Offline vigilo confido

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2014, 08:03:43 pm »
Threat fleet is basically all the ships woken up. A cross planet attack just wakes more ships up to destroy you. The threat fleet will only attack when it feels you are vulnerable so it might be best to bring the fight to the threat fleet because destroying those ships only weakens the AI's military.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2014, 09:02:18 pm »
To clarify: "threat" and "threatfleet" are two different things.  The game itself never uses the term "threatfleet" in the UI (except for some debug info), it just says "Threat" for all the AI units that are "free" to attack you however they think will be most effective.  As opposed to the AI's "guard" ships which are strictly forbidden to abandon their posts and come after you.

"Threatfleet", proper, refers to a subset of "Threat" that has been assigned to a single coherent fleet.  That fleet will tend to hang back about 3 hops from "the front lines" (as the AI sees it) and will look for holes in your defenses or other opportunities to be useful.

Ordinary "threat" also looks for holes, but once it picks a place to attack it goes there and camps the wormhole until it thinks it can win before attacking.  If a given unit of threat has been camping for 30 minutes it will join the threatfleet instead.
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Offline IIE16 Yoshi

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2014, 02:24:11 am »
Would it be safe to assume this building threat is the threatfleet, then? I'm pretty sure all the systems in my portion of the X are within 3 jumps so it must be stationed on one of the arms of the X and first contact from one of the arms is my homeworld. I also appear to have pushed a button at some point by accident that gave me the "last scouted" clocks on all the scouted planets. Eventually managed to push another button at random and remove that, only now I've done it again and it says "Con *numberhere*". I assume it means Condition, though condition of what, I don't know. Fleet strength, fleet size, defense size, probability of attack, surrounding enemy fleet sizes.. *shrug*

SO MUCH INFO, IT MELTS MY BRAIN. Still don't know what those yellow buttons underneath the priorities do, nor do I know how to remove priorities once they're no longer relevant. One of those buttons is fire. I assume fire means "blow up everything and abandon planet" so I haven't tried clicking it.

EDIT:
And the new hacking mechanic, is it generally okay to hack things on occasion so long as the Hacking Progress is still a positive number or does it rapidly get very severe like it did before?
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 02:27:06 am by IIE16 Yoshi »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2014, 09:37:16 am »
Would it be safe to assume this building threat is the threatfleet, then?
If it shows up in the threat counter above, and you can't account for it on the planets bordering you, then it's probably either threatfleet or some chunk of recently-freed threat from behind the lines that's still coming up to the front (so a CPA or a wave that went to ? ? ?, etc).

To quickly check if it's on the planets bordering you:
1) Make sure you have a scout on each of those bordering planets (unless you've set fog-of-war in the lobby to Complete Visibility, in which case you don't need scouts)
2) Go to the galaxy map
3) Change the galaxy display dropdown (of the two near the bottom center, it's the one on the left) to "Detected Threat"
4) Look at the numbers now displayed on each planet (if any) and see if they roughly add up to the total Threat displayed at the top of the screen.

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Eventually managed to push another button at random and remove that, only now I've done it again and it says "Con *numberhere*". I assume it means Condition
I don't think there's anything that means "Condition", specifically, down there.  Possibly a number of constructors?  Anyway, if you didn't deliberately pick that display mode, then don't worry about what it means :)


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SO MUCH INFO, IT MELTS MY BRAIN.
The AI has many ways to pursue victory.


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One of those buttons is fire. I assume fire means "blow up everything and abandon planet" so I haven't tried clicking it.
That's flare.  Basically like ping from other games.  It's purely for MP communication, really.


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And the new hacking mechanic, is it generally okay to hack things on occasion so long as the Hacking Progress is still a positive number or does it rapidly get very severe like it did before?
As long as the number is positive it doesn't get massively harder all of a sudden, so you can keep doing it until the number either gets low or the responses start worrying you too much.  But if it goes negative you should probably stop immediately.
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Offline Kahuna

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2014, 01:05:54 pm »
Flare aka ping is for multiplayer.. and it doesn't work. Player 1 flares and player 2 has no idea where the flare is. We played with Cyborg and he flared something but I had no idea what. I could hear the sound but didn't see anything anywhere.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
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Offline Aklyon

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2014, 01:38:21 pm »
Flare aka ping is for multiplayer.. and it doesn't work. Player 1 flares and player 2 has no idea where the flare is. We played with Cyborg and he flared something but I had no idea what. I could hear the sound but didn't see anything anywhere.
Its worked fine for us few in a game that wasn't yours. Then again, usually its accompanied by 'hey, where is that?' in the text chat, so people are looking at the map anyway. Or its a bunch of shift-pinging so it gets noticed by playing the sound 6 times or something. This has gone on for several months (sometime pre-VotM until last sunday), so I'm reasonably sure its not the games problem unless you're trying to ping with black color.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2014, 01:41:35 pm by Aklyon »

Offline Kahuna

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2014, 01:52:20 pm »
So how am I supposed to see the ping? Does it show in the galaxy map? Because I tried that too. Noticing the ping really shouldn't be that hard.
set /A diff=10
if %diff%==max (
   set /A me=:)
) else (
   set /A me=SadPanda
)
echo Check out my AI War strategy guide and find your inner Super Cat!
echo 2592 hours of AI War and counting!
echo Kahuna matata!

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2014, 03:09:26 pm »
Its a cross-shaped flash of the player's color, and if the ping is on the planet screen it looks more like a flashing x. Both show up on the galaxy map. Bit of a 'poom' sound.

Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2014, 05:44:39 pm »
And the new hacking mechanic, is it generally okay to hack things on occasion so long as the Hacking Progress is still a positive number or does it rapidly get very severe like it did before?
As long as the number is positive it doesn't get massively harder all of a sudden, so you can keep doing it until the number either gets low or the responses start worrying you too much.  But if it goes negative you should probably stop immediately.
Interesting.

Another newbie here, who picked up the game a week ago, and it is interesting to see how the advice of veteran players and the developers contrasts with what I'm discovering by trial and error. I'm on my first "real" game after running two trial games for 6-7 hours to learn the basic game mechanics, but on 7/7 I ran the Superterminal hacking until -234 in the second trial before the "extreme forest fire" status finally spawned enough ships that I decided to pull the plug. The scrap made it entirely worthwhile, even if the AIP reduction hadn't done it in the first place. (That said - NOT a smart plan if you ever want to casually hack anything later on, as it turns any later hack into a serious affair)

Perhaps it is related to different difficulty settings and this is something you just cannot afford when playing a more challenging game or perhaps I'm just setting myself up for a big AI smackdown like the awesome exo champion raid that eventually ended my 2nd attempt, made me a believer in stacking forcefields, and made my now third (ongoing) attempt ultra defensive turtle style.

Or perhaps it is related to the total AIP you have accumulated? On my third (ongoing) 7/7 attempt, where I decided to stress the AIP mechanics by going on a moderate expansion spree rather than the minimalist approach advocated in the forum and the wiki, I ended up spending 643.44 HAP on AIP reduction and once HAP went even slightly negative, slightly nasty things happened, but certainly controllable.

Even so, it seems to me that being able to provoke the AI with hacking on demand - and ending it on demand - is the very best scrap generator I've found in the game yet. Unless there is some non-transparent long-term effect that'll come back to bite me in the arse, and given the deviousness of the game's overall design there very well might be, being able to generate attacks on demand that will mostly hit my prepared defenses is truly wonderful.
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Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2014, 05:59:10 pm »
Welcome to the game and to the forums :)

Another newbie here, who picked up the game a week ago, and it is interesting to see how the advice of veteran players and the developers contrasts with what I'm discovering by trial and error.
When in doubt, it's an AI disinformation campaign.

In this case I think the main difference is that the AI difficulty was fairly low (7) in your experiments.  Though I'd have expected worse responses from the -200 zone, so perhaps there's some interactions with recent changes.

Going highly negative, even if it doesn't say anything about "forest fire", usually results in the AI entering "Not Very Serene!" mode (would you happen, per chance, to be that Peter Ebbesen?)


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Even so, it seems to me that being able to provoke the AI with hacking on demand - and ending it on demand - is the very best scrap generator I've found in the game yet. Unless there is some non-transparent long-term effect that'll come back to bite me in the arse, and given the deviousness of the game's overall design there very well might be, being able to generate attacks on demand that will mostly hit my prepared defenses is truly wonderful.
Yea, the hacking mechanic is fairly new, and the salvage mechanic is very new, so there may be some adjustments needed on both and on the combination.
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Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2014, 06:47:33 pm »
Going highly negative, even if it doesn't say anything about "forest fire", usually results in the AI entering "Not Very Serene!" mode (would you happen, per chance, to be that Peter Ebbesen?)
Yes, I am, and I am serene.

I never got around to picking up your game when it first came out and was reminded of it recently, when I saw it recommended at the Paradox forum where I hang out as being as game that could really challenge the player with its asymmetrical design. And I love asymmetrical design, when done well, and since I had some time left over, well, here I am.

And they were right. I got handed my head in the second game due to not understanding the game mechanics well enough and underestimating the opposition on what is presented as the normal difficulty level; That's awesome! I fully expect to win the third game, though, but then again, I always expect to win strategy games vs. the AI, so expectations aside, I have high hopes that my expectations will be foiled with another loss despite my best efforts or, if I should not be so lucky, that it'll be a hard fought victory.

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Even so, it seems to me that being able to provoke the AI with hacking on demand - and ending it on demand - is the very best scrap generator I've found in the game yet. Unless there is some non-transparent long-term effect that'll come back to bite me in the arse, and given the deviousness of the game's overall design there very well might be, being able to generate attacks on demand that will mostly hit my prepared defenses is truly wonderful.
Yea, the hacking mechanic is fairly new, and the salvage mechanic is very new, so there may be some adjustments needed on both and on the combination.
One obvious suggestion off the top of my head addressing only the hacking-response part of the twain based on only minimal abuse of the mechanic (because I haven't played long enough to find better ways to abuse it :p) would be to add a bit of uncertainty to the hacking process by not immediately deescalating but letting the AI stay on hacking alert for a random period of time after the hack stops (from a few seconds to possibly a few minutes?)

Basically have an "AI is alert to your recent hacking" state with appropriate warning that spawns AI responses as if hacking was still in progress, lasting base_time+random(difficulty_modifier*delta_time).

I love how seat-of-your-pants negative HAP hacking isn't an immediate death sentence but a gamble that you are balancing things just right, but giving a bit of randomness with AI aggression duration over hacking would enliven both safe and unsafe hacking, though mostly the unsafe hacking, and it would make deliberate abuse of the start/stop hacking mechanic considerably riskier.

Or would this unduly upset the apple cart on higher difficulty levels where, presumably, timing and leeway for player error is considerably more constrained?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 07:07:21 pm by Peter Ebbesen »
Ride the Lightning - a newbie Fallen Spire AAR - the AAR of my second serious AI War game. Now completed.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2014, 07:41:43 pm »
Yes, I am, and I am serene.
I've sometimes wondered what would happen if The Conqueror collided with AIW.  Well, we'll see :)


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And I love asymmetrical design, when done well, and since I had some time left over, well, here I am.

And they were right. I got handed my head in the second game due to not understanding the game mechanics well enough and underestimating the opposition on what is presented as the normal difficulty level; That's awesome!
Glad you're enjoying it thus far, I hope you continue to do so.

It does tend to reward experimentation with knowledge, audacity with victory, and ignorance with evisceration.


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I fully expect to win the third game, though, but then again, I always expect to win strategy games vs. the AI, so expectations aside, I have high hopes that my expectations will be foiled with another loss despite my best efforts or, if I should not be so lucky, that it'll be a hard fought victory.
7 is fairly easy to win once you know what's going on, but 8, 9, and especially 10 have much more potential for enduring challenge.  The game's overall balance is currently tilted more in the player direction than usual due to recent changes that are still shaking out.  And 10 is still currently winnable.  I hope to fix that bug soon.

Larger and larger AI sledgehammers aside, there's also a lot of game setup options that allow adding extra chaos to increase the number of "oh no!" moments for the player.  Anyway, plenty of !!fun!! to be had, if the core experience is agreeable.


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not immediately deescalating but letting the AI stay on hacking alert for a random period of time after the hack stops (from a few seconds to possibly a few minutes?)
Hmm, yea, that does sound like that would improve the feel overall.  One current issue is that if you time a lot of simultaneous hacks to complete in the same second, you can go from positive to negative-several-thousand and immediately turn off all hacking (and probably never hack again) without attracting much response.  So if it kept the response going for even another 60 seconds that particular tactic would be rather addressed.


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Or would this unduly upset the apple cart on higher difficulty levels where, presumably, timing and leeway for player error is considerably more constrained?
It would tighten the noose up there, yes, but the feedback I'm hearing is that the hacking response needs more teeth in general, even on the highest difficulty levels.  So this is certainly one angle to explore, thanks.
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Offline Peter Ebbesen

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2014, 10:38:17 am »
Yes, I am, and I am serene.
I've sometimes wondered what would happen if The Conqueror collided with AIW.  Well, we'll see :)
I'm having fun, and what more could one reasonably demand from entertainment?


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I fully expect to win the third game, though, but then again, I always expect to win strategy games vs. the AI, so expectations aside, I have high hopes that my expectations will be foiled with another loss despite my best efforts or, if I should not be so lucky, that it'll be a hard fought victory.
7 is fairly easy to win once you know what's going on, but 8, 9, and especially 10 have much more potential for enduring challenge.  The game's overall balance is currently tilted more in the player direction than usual due to recent changes that are still shaking out.  And 10 is still currently winnable.  I hope to fix that bug soon.

Larger and larger AI sledgehammers aside, there's also a lot of game setup options that allow adding extra chaos to increase the number of "oh no!" moments for the player.  Anyway, plenty of !!fun!! to be had, if the core experience is agreeable.
Right, the third attempt that was ongoing when I wrote the previous has now been won after an epic 24 hours and 12 minutes at 638 AIP and 32 planets controlled. The main reason for taking so long was my slow turtling approach as I kept expecting the AI to do something dastardly, which it did not do, in the end. Though it is entirely possible that the reason it never did anything I evaluated as truly dastardly is exactly because of the painstakingly slow expansion and humongous fortification efforts I undertook preventing it from doing so.

Either that, or, more likely, you've only enabled truly dastardly AI acts on higher difficulty settings than 7.

Much was learned about basic mechanics, and while I really liked the way the AI probed for weaknesses with its threatfleet, the only thing that was remotely challenging - apart from the time I decided it would be a fun idea to trigger and destroy two raid engines on adjacent planets in one go rather than dealing with them one at a time - were the exo shadow frigate nemesis fleets, that had reached something like 2x120 frigates in the last wave and were best defeated with my full navy in support of my homeworld defenses.

By contrast, the cross planet attacks, that I'd read about before starting playing and which sounded dangerous, turned out to be pitiful. At a time when the AI was throwing 7-11k regular waves against me and hundreds of shadow frigates in the exo raids, it was still only adding a negligible amount of 2400 ships to the cross planet attacks.

My assumption is that this is because regular waves were dominated in magnitude by the AIP, while the CPAs were dominated in magnitude by the difficulty setting, but still, it felt remarkably strange that after the first 8h or so I could pretty much ignore them.



It strikes me that my reaction is probably pretty much as you expected, insofar as you had any expectations at all - bump head against game mechanics, analyse them, defeat them, move on, and win.

So, final verdict after first victory? A fun game, and one I can see myself playing on and off for the next several years, just like other enduring favourites that I do not play all the time, but play intensely every few months.


I do want to learn more, as way too many things were countered simply by funneling everything to my homeworld death trap of bonus starbases from alt-champion, all the modular forts, superfortress and all other fun Zenith Trader unlocks, a few extra forts, area mines, turret-Vs, counter snipers, etc. everything funneled down an area-mine lane of death.

So I'll definitely play a fourth game now with higher difficulty setting or more minor stuff enabled to add difficulty. The received-wisdom "stay at minimum AIP on the highest difficulty settings" doesn't really appeal to me - as you know, I like to conquer, and the more the merrier, so any advice on what would be a reasonable setting for me next?

7.3, 7.6, 8.0 (what on Earth is going on with the fractional difficulty increases?) - or would you advise me to go higher?

Fallen Spire - it says it adds a whole new way to play, more campaign oriented, which sounds interesting. Does it also up the difficulty?

There are so very, very, many settings to tinker with, whether it be AI plots or minor factions - any particular you can advise when what I really want is a setting that a) allows me to conquer a lot so long as I am superior at defensive strategy rather than pretty much requiring a minimal-but-powerful-for-the-size realm, b) makes the AI threatfleet or other aggression methods more strategically dangerous, either by increased prowess or by increased uncertainty rather than merely by increased magnitude?

I simply don't have the time, alas, to try out everything, so if there are some settings you particularly love, are proud of, admire the deviousness of, or think could accomplish those goals, I'm all ears.   :)


EDIT: It strikes me that I am seriously derailing this thread from its original topic, but your post practically begged for a followup; My apologies if such thread derailment is frowned upon in your forum.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 10:39:52 am by Peter Ebbesen »
Ride the Lightning - a newbie Fallen Spire AAR - the AAR of my second serious AI War game. Now completed.

Offline Aklyon

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Re: Threat and the "Threatfleet", and more
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2014, 11:45:25 am »
Fallen Spire is essential war mode if you survive long enough and actually trigger it. (you can turn FS on for any game, but nothing happens if you don't actually follow up with starting it) You get periodic exos (both event-based and ones similar to golems-hard after you've gotten a certain structure), you need more space to fit said structures than min-AIP will really work with, you get journal lore, and you get more ships. FS intensity 10 is...interesting, while the more average intensity 4 is probably much better to try first. The only downside to it is that its not particularly full of variety at the moment as far as events go.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 11:47:46 am by Aklyon »