Author Topic: The Ship Strategy Conversation  (Read 19677 times)

Offline Wanderer

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The Ship Strategy Conversation
« on: February 08, 2012, 03:21:36 am »
Guess I'll start this off.  A blurb or two about each of the ships and how they handle for the Player and the AI.  I'll start with my own findings and will edit as discussion unfolds.

Acid Sprayer:
Player: Piece of crap, really only useful if you're getting pounded on by odd hulls like Refractive or Neutron.

AI: Highly annoying but weak.  It ignores missile turrets and snipers so once it's out of the main wave defenses it's got a free ride.

Anti-Armor
Player: Relatively weak.  Primary use is to pop flagship line of starships. Armor Piercing is helpful if the AI has popped special ships with high armor or fighting Tank type units.  There's better though.

AI: Relatively weak in AI's hands too unless you're overly dependent on starships or Hardened FFs.

Armor-Booster
Player: Can be useful, in particular as a support ship with starships.  It's only use is support however.

AI: Incredibly annoying support unit, but not as annoying as the munitions booster.

Armor
Player: High survivability but nothing special.  It's much more effective at higher grades when the armor goes up, but even then 6k isn't a lot.  Basically good for anti-fighters, the dps is too low.

AI: Requires micro to help make sure your units/turrets don't get hung up pounding on these instead of killing actually scary units.

Armor Rotter
Player: Mixed bag.  More useful when dealing with Exo-waves then standard game, because of the high armor golems and H/Ks.  Need to micro to proper targets, but can be very effective when used that way.  Decent DPS and health, but low cap.

AI: Worthless.  Without micro they're just something else to absorb shots and to kill.

AutoBomb
Player: Mixxed opinion.  They're a specialty ship.  They're cheap for a lot of damage, but one-shots.  They can be useful for suicide raids to help neuter strong systems but can end up dead before they reach the target on a camped wormhole.  Use Transports to get past camps.

AI: Incredibly annoying.  They'll go for flagship line ships and anything else big enough to be worthy while the rest of the local defenders harass your fleet.  They die easily enough but the AI can mob these things at you constantly.  A wave of these can chew your defenses to pieces.

Autocannon
Player: Meh.  The Cloaking helps you deep raid but they're only good for 1 or 2 guardposts before they're reduced to too few to be worthy.  Shots and hull are weak but you get a ton of them.  They tear down armor when used en-masse though so anything they're shooting at eventually dies a horrible death.

AI: Nothing special.  A few tachyon turrets and they're dead meat.  Mostly annoying because you have to research decloaker to hunt them down if they decide to hang around in systems so they won't auto-rebuild.

Beam Frigate
Description: A ship with a powerful beam weapon that can hit up to 9 ships in a line.

Player: An A+ ship in player hands, particularly when upgraded.  They can cut through mobs of ships.  When supported by other ships as a screening wall they can really chew into a line of ships (think traveling kills between wormholes).  Also very handy on wormhole defense when the wave gets mobbed up during the opening stages.  Can require a lot of micro to use at maximum efficiency.

AI: For waves, not a particularly dangerous ship, as most of your turrets will be out of reach.  When attacking however they'll cause constant damage to the entire fleet, causing you to repair more often.  Usually not enough of them to cause serious pain from the AI, it's more annoying then anything.  Eventually they wear your fleet out in multi-system attacks.

Blade Spawner
Player: Another A+ ship.  The constant spawns of blades can chew through entire planets.  They pass FFs, smack snipers, and chew on guardians and guardposts alike.  One of the most dangerous early/midgame ships.  Late game they get overwhelmed by other units due to the low caps.

AI:
During Waves and/or defenses: Almost ignorable, they'll all spawn in range of your turrets and your grav turrets will shut down their blade attack.

Early Game: A significant problem.  You will need ranged ships (snipers, zenith snipers, your own blade spawners, etc) to counter these in the early game or expect attrition rates of 25-50% while attacking a system.

Mid/Late Game: You'll have enough firepower that unless you're dealing with an over-alerted system that they'll just be an annoyance.

Bombards
Player: Decent unit.  Slow recycle on the shots can make them one-hit wonders, but with proper priority targetting they're solid.  Their range also helps keep a lot of ships off your main fleet once you've cleared your entrance.

AI: A horrible nuisance, and nearly game-breaking.  Walking into a reasonably defended system you will eat tons of these.  The attrition rate on your heavy ships to these is painful.  If you're fighting bombards you'll want long range craft that can hammer on these nuisances that won't come towards your main fleet.  You'll usually have to FRD to catch all of them so they can't pound you to pieces as they all run away in different directions.

Bulletproof
Description: A fighter with some extra bonuses.  Of note is it is immune to most paralytical enemies, Ion Cannons (and all other insta-kills), and about 1/4 of the firepower used by fleet ships (Shell ammunition)

Player: Equivalent of an slightly overpowered fighter, but more expensive, so you pay for it.  Having the same bonuses as the fighter, they can be particularly effective against Bomber waves, or any other polycrystal armored ship.

AI: Waves of these are usually no worse then waves of fighters, unless you're overdependent on basic turrets alone.  In particular they're easy to build up a secondary fleet of if you have teleporting leeches, as they can't shoot themselves so anything you reclaim will live through the defense (barring starships killing them).  In standard fleet combat they're not much of a threat in AI hands.

Chameleon
Description:  A bomber unit that cloaks when it's not moving.

Player: They're basically bigger, more expensive bombers.  Of particular note is they will almost always get their alpha strikes off against inbound waves, being in range and cloaked during the entry of the enemy.  After that the hidden strike mechanic isn't very important.

AI: Annoying because they'll hide in your systems once the wave is 'almost' dead, forcing you to grab a decloaker and hunt them down.

Cutlass
Player: A cheap melee ship with poor lifespan and dps.  Heals itself and can cut through any armor, but hurts itself with each attack.  I'm personally not a fan but haven't used them much.

AI: Annoying, because it seems like your ships constantly target other things and you just keep hearing them scratching on the armor.  Of concern because they can bypass the cmd station FFs and chew up your toys.

Deflector
Player: A decent ship with excellent range and reasonable speed.  Not very strong but cheap.  Theoretically reduces laser fire but not a lot of AI ships have laser fire.

AI: Will nerf the anti-starship laser turrets you've setup on your whipping boys until destroyed.

Electric Shuttle
Player: B class ship, mostly used for mob control.  There's a cap on how many will fire within a system inside of its reload time, but that's based on marks so upgrades won't lower their firepower.  It punches through all armor, but it's really an attrition weapon.  Only useful as part of a fleet.

AI: Annoying little creatures.  Will eventually wear down entire fleets doing long distance traveling.  Generally a nuisance, not a threat.

Electric Bomber
Player: Bomber's big daddy, just with a low cap.  Expensive, slow, and you might as well just cap bombers.  In particular they seem to get easily concentrated on and killed in the early game and won't show their strength until the late game when a strong econ can quickly replace them.  If you're facing bombards or another similar long range, hard hitting ship they'll be nothing but cannon fodder.

AI: OW.  These things can tear into you because of the random placement choices for reinforcements and lack of cap from the AI.  They're not so dangerous on wave defenses but it's when they're world defenders they become nasty.

Etherjet
Player: Decent little fighter wannabe with excellent speed that can hold enemies outside of their cloaking range (now).  Excellent for running up to squads of enemies, letting them tractor, and hauling back a small chunk of enemies to your fleet.  Requires micro to work well, otherwise they're just a ship in the fleet.

AI: Annoying.  They'll grab your ships and run like heck to other system, firing up threat and getting those ships killed in the meanwhile.  Luckily they're relatively weak.

EyeBot
Player: Think Raid Starship with a cloak.  They're slower and a specialized unit.  You take these if you want to concentrate on raiding outside of your primary fleet.  Decent harassers and a specialized units.  1/2 caps compared to triangle ships, you'll want to upgrade them to be able to deep-strike harass.  Be aware of alerting tons of planets with them.

AI: OW.  These are an A class threat.  They cloak past your defenses, ignore your forcefields, and have a real taste for command centers.  You will need tachyon detection in depth, grav turrets, and anything else you can get your hands on if the AI starts using these.  They also ignore missiles and snipers, which account for all of your longer range turrets.  Make sure to keep a few basic/lasers near all your command stations.

Force-field bearers
Description: Low ship cap (24 normal) with a small-size force-field.  Their primary purpose is being a mobile force-field for your units that doesn't affect damage.

Player: A cap of these is enough to protect a fraction of our fleet from harm in the starting stages of battle. Use group-move with a separate group if you really want to emphasise the utility of the ship. When entering hostile wormholes, send these in at the head of an invading fleet to absorb the initial alpha-strike from defenders.  Also useful to cover your command stations and fabricators in an emergency when FFs are failing. A set of markI + markIIs with a small strong fleet can be an incredibly effective force.   Also useful to cover shards during Fallen Spire campaigns.

AI: Annoying to fight against as you're constantly beating down extra forcefields to get at enemy damage dealers.  Not a threat in their own right except in large waves that take forever to kill.  If you have FF bypassing ships you probably won't feel the pain nearly as much during offense.

Fortress
Special mention because it's not an unlockable but requires some smart play and they're expensive K wise.
Player: Incredibly useful besides the obvious in two cases. 
First is for exo defense.  Creating a gauntlet of worlds to your main defenses with one or two each of these will allow them to heavily whittle down the incoming forces.  Back them up with snipers to kill off polycrystal (read: bomber) armors that peel off the main unit.
Second is in K-Raiding.  While incredibly expensive to build, they'll practically guarantee a successful K-Raid on all but the highest AI tiers if backed up with sniper turrets.

AI: The recent hp reductions have made them easier to deal with.  Raid Starships with proper targetting micro can usually get in and out without much damage to kill their local guardpost.  If they're parked on a wormhole though you're in for it.  You need polycrystal units (bombers) to kill these without taking inane losses.  If you're stuck with one of these on your wormhole, you're looking at sending in bombers, killing the tachyon post, backing off, using cloaked transports to get your fleet into the system without dying, deploying outside it's range, peeling off the defenders, and THEN sending the bombers in for final strike.  There's other options but that's your best method unless you've got supply on the planet to create a beachhead.

Gravity Drain
Description: A mobile Gravity Turret with a gun.

Player: These will almost completely shut down enemy blade spawners, and are almost a requirement if you're taking on an AI that starts with these early game.  They'll also slow up autobombs and melees that will attempt to hammer your ships on suicide runs.  Of limited use against fast-movers with range (raptors).  Usage if not dealing with special requirements is usually as a suicide buffer between the enemy and your glass cannon ships with range (ie: zenith bombards).

AI: For Wave defenses these are  ignorable.  Treat like a high-hp fighter.  When attacking systems however these can cause you tremendous pain when they're coupled with a few high-power guardians you just can't get near before they decimate your force.  They're spawned in large numbers so you'll have to expect to just let your fleet take a beating anytime you're trying to even approach a forcefield or chase down a high power guardian.  If you have them, snipers can be helpful here with them as priority, but it takes a while.  There's no good counter except for ships that ignore gravity, and there's very few of those. 

Gravity Ripper
Description: Similar but weaker version of the Gravity Drain above.  In particular it can only affect a number of targets at a time, as it has to shoot the enemy to cause the gravitation effect, and is shorter in area of effect.

Grenade Launcher
Player: One of the few AoE ships available, this ship can be incredibly useful in high-density situations, such as wave defenses or threat baiting.  They'll hit packs of 8 (+2 more for each mark incrase). In system offenses I find them less powerful.  Long reload and weak damage tend to have me avoid this ship.  (I'm well aware discussion on this may vary below, I'm all ears).

AI: Because you're usually a fleet-ball, this ship can be devastating to you.  It's hard to space your fleet out well, but try if you're fighting these units, or use high-armor ships.  Not overly dangerous in waves unless you've clustered your turrets very tightly.

Impulse Emitter
Player: Specialty ship good against high energy targets.  If you're facing Exos (Golem-Hard, Spire-Hard, Fallen Spire) they're a powerful ship in your arsenal.  If you're not they're a specialty ship that you'll have to look for good opportunities to use.  Try to concentrate them on guardians and starships.  You'll have to micro.

AI: Not so dangerous in waves, but they'll chew up your fortresses and ffs pretty well.  If you're running Fallen Spire be careful as they can chew up your spire fleet if they don't have a screening force.  Otherwise just expect to replace your starships more often then usual.

Infiltrator
I've never used them and I've only seen one AI play them, so no opinion.  Initial opinion: Weak piece of trash.

Laser Gatling
Player: A sandpaper unit with incredibly high caps and very cheap.  Low bonuses.  AKA: Cannon Fodder.  Use as a distraction before you send the real force in so they absorb the enemy's alpha strikes.

AI: They're target practice.  Don't worry about the huge wave numbers, they die in droves.  Shove your flaks and lightnings under the FF for these if you're getting waves of them.  The AoE's worth keeping them alive.

Maw
Player: A good ship.  Low DPS but its ability to swallow ships goes up by 50 for each MK.  The only reason to upgrade is to get more of them because of the incredibly low caps.  Very useful with smaller strike forces to keep the drifting defenders off the main fleet.  Will help with attrition in larger fleets.

AI: Grade A threat when attacking systems.  In bulk at high MKs they take forever to kill and are constantly swallowing the ships you're trying to kill them with.  Just about everything but starships can be swallowed.  Fight with Golems, Spirecraft, or Fallen Spire.  If you're stuck fighting them, go to a starship based fleet.

Mercenary Units
Special Mention.

They're huge, they're pretty, and they're economy wrecking.  For the price of a few of these ships you could build a fortress.  Only use these ships if your economy is maxxed out and you're looking for things to build.  They can add a nice boost to your firepower and will reasonably survive with a screen of your weaker mark ships, but are an incredible investment to risk.

Microfighters
See Laser Gatlings.  They're basically an improved version of this with minor tachyon detection and more reasonable bonuses.  Still trash.

MiniRam
Player: Looking for players who have used this extensively.  I dislike any suicide unit with a 3k cost, I don't care what damage it does.

AI: Starship wrecking !@#!#!!!!!!.... Use small numerous fleet ships to deal with these.  Any kind of screening force you can get between them and whatever they want to hit.  They punch through FFs and tractors, too, so make sure you've got grav turrets up for defense.

Mirror
Description:  A long range low DPS unit that reflects most ammo types back on the attacker.  Particularly succeptable to missile fire.

Player: An odd unit.  Excellent range for picking at raptors and the like, and is primarily more useful in dying for you.  The reflection capabilities will let you take on forces much larger then you'd usually expect, and well worth upgrading.  Use as primary strike force and bring in your fleet after to deal with heavier structures that they can't damage without hurting themselves.  Be ready to rebuild them often, as they're basically suicidal in their method of defeating large numbers of enemies.

AI: A royal pain.  You need missile units, and you'll need them in bulk to fight these down.  Take your Missile Frigs to MK III asap once you start having to fight these.  Base your whipping boy defenses on LRM/MLRS/Sniper/Lightning because your shorter range turrets will basically kill themselves.

Munitions Booster
Player: A useful fleet ship, but very low caps which make its boosting only so good.  Very useful in tandem with a starship primary build, or any other fleet ship with low caps and high dps (IE: Spire Stealth Battleships). 

AI: Because the AI doesn't cap on unit count for system reinforcements, these things are a constant boost to the enemy.  Expect much higher losses than normal once you start facing them.  There's really no counter, you'll just have to grind them up.

Paralyzer
Player: Low DPS but that's not the point.  It tazers a limited number of enemy ships once every 8 seconds.  These ships can completely shut down close range attackers in limited numbers.  I don't usually care about limited numbers of close range attackers, thus an utterly useless ship to me.

AI: Annoying but easily defeatable.  They need to be concentrated to have any real effect.  I consider this a free kill when the AI gets a bonus ship of this type.

Parasite
Player: If reclaiming ships wasn't such a hassle, these would be more useful in fleet combat.  You'll have to bring a mobile repair base to get reclaims to get out of the fighting lines and heal up before they get flattened by accident.  I've never had a lot of success using these.

AI: More annoying then anything, but be very careful against waves of these on defense, keep your fleet well clear.  Zombie Guardians are more dangerous then these in the AIs hands.

Space Plane
Player: Another raiding ship, but high #s of weak shots.  Their primary strength is their radar dampening, which they can fire further than, making them excellent for taking out powerful guard posts like the MLRS.  Very limited in their usage however and there's better options.  As a free ship you're either going to choose to use them as an indepent force or basically ignore them as cannon fodder.

AI: Like all AI cloakers they can be annoying to hunt down after a wave fight or taking a new system, but basically as ignorable as fighters as long as you've got some fleet handy.

Polarizer
Description: A ship with a boost against high armor targets only.

Player: Aside from fortresses which eat Polarizers, there arenot enough high-armored AI vessels to make a difference outside of Exo-Wave defenses.  As an unlockable, pass this by.  If you're stuck with it try to prioritize these against tank-type vessels in the AI's arsenel, or just concentrate them on guardians.

AI: Relatively harmless.  It only cares about things with high armor so don't use a starship based build.  Be careful for your fortresses.

Raider
Player: Just another ship, really.  Decent range and good speed, weak hp.

AI: More targets, woot!  They're a win when the AI gets them since it reinforces on ship count not cap count.

Raptor
Player: Reading through this you'll notice I've mentioned raptors a few times.  They're a nuisance.  They can be very powerful with limited micro.  They have a decent DPS but their power is in their range and speed.  You cannot catch a raptor unless it wants to be caught, like a raid starship.  They cloak and they try to keep out of reach of anything but Missile Frigate ranges.  They get no bonuses against structures but these are amazing ships to use to aggravate and clean out AI systems.  They are particularly powerful against Maws (one of my banes) because they can't be swallowed and dance out of range of their main guns.

AI: Dear lord what a PITA.  Upgrade your Missile Frigates and keep them on hand, it's the only thing that can reach out and touch them.  Get Mirrors, Laser Deflectors, or something else with high range and keep them with your fleet.  If you can touch these craft they die easily.  Waves of them die in droves.

Resistance Fighter Bombers and Frigates
Special Mention.

You only get these under your control if you're playing with Rebel Colony Rebellions.  They're very powerful, and I recommend capping them as soon as you're able.

Sentinel Frigate
Player: A slow moving sniper fire type of unit.  Half the time their shots won't land because whatever they fired at a few seconds ago died.  Mostly useful when dealing with longer range units that ignore sniper shots (mirrors, for example).  I'd still take regular snipers over them if given the choice.

AI: ARGH.  It's like fighting blade spawners.  You're taking fire from 20 different directions constantly from ships you can't reach and will run when you close with them.  Bring along your own snipers to counter, or very fast ships and FRD them with a priority for the sentinels.  Die in droves if they show in a wave.

Sniper
Player: Grade A ship.  A full cap of these upgraded with a transport and a cloaker can trash a system by themselves, and not need supply.  Defensive, offensive, range, and solid DPS with high bonuses for certain hulls.  What more could you ask for?  Oh, yeah, a higher cap.  At MK IV you still won't be able to build as many of these as you can sniper turret Is.

AI: Gyeah.  see Sentinel above, it's just a little easier to defend against.  Build Scout Starships with their sniper flares and bring them along with your main fleet.  It'll keep most of the pain away but you'll have to keep your fleet ball tight.

Spider
Player: A low DPS ship built to do engine damage.  Meh range and low cap.  AKA: Cannon Fodder.

AI: Will degrade your fleet by forcing you to leave units behind after nerfing worlds.  Best defense is actually Engineer III's to come in and do repairs after facing them to get your fleet moving again.  Not overly dangerous in the long run.

Stealth Battleship
Player: Need advice, never used.

AI: Annoying, powerful, and because of the lack of the cap they can really ruin your day.  Prepare for heavy anti-starship bouts if the AI pulls these.  Each one is a mini-fortress.  With Radar Dampening.  And Cloak. 

Tank
Player: An overarmored Bomber.  Useful anywhere polycrystal is (Fortress Baron, for example, with his umpteen fortresses).  Not generally a strong ship in player hands.

AI: Can be aggravating to kill, but not too badly.  Schizo waves with these can drive you crazy but they're basically bombers.  Lack of caps can make reinforcement defenses a bit painful if you're overly succeptable to bombers (heavy on frigate/starship usage).

Teleporting Leech
Player: Commit these to helping on wave defenses and leave behind.  Utterly useless for fleet battles.  They can definately build up a reserve force of random ships however if they're left for wave defense and you have a rally point for the reclaims.

AI: About as annoying as the parasite, but make sure you've got TIII Logistics CMD Centers to shut down the teleports on the whipping boy.  If they get through they can cause all sorts of hassle.

Teleport Raider/Battlestation
Player: A secondary, almost separate fleet.  They need to be micro'd or they break off the fleet ball even in group move and get themselves wrecked.  Battlestations are better if you have to make the choice because of AI Eyes.  A lot of things you'd want to raid are immune to Minor Electric so their versatility is low.  Primarily useful if you're dealing with a lot of range units (snipers, blade spawners, raptors, etc).

AI: Logistics III or die.  Once these break past your outer defenses into the backfield they will tear your econ to shreds and eventually you'll end up chasing them across half the galaxy.  They die easily enough... if you can catch them.

Tractor Platform AKA Honeycomb
Player: Requires a lot of micro to use well.  Very low caps make their versatility low, they die too quickly in places where you want to be able to drag a subsection of ships from, like a camped wormhole.

AI: Bane of my existance.  They'll grab 50-100 of your ships, are a pain to actually lay waste to when there's 10+ of them at MK III/IV dragging your fleet all over the universe, and will light up threat throughout the known galaxy.  Bombers, more bombers, and then more bombers.  Starship builds will help combat them as well, since they can't be tractored.  Of particular use against them are Maws.

Vampire
Player: Another close combat ship that heals itself as it does damage.  Decent bonuses and regen time.  Ignores FFs.

AI: Annoying little buggers, but mostly dangerous in waves.  Without grav wells they'll blow right into your command center and burst it, then pass through to chew up anything else.  Make sure to protect any outlying fabricators and the like as well with gravity, as they find them tasty and will beeline for them.

Viral Shredder
Player: If you've got the energy, they've got the will.  Similar to the vampire, but instead of healing these little babies multiply.  An A class ship if used well.  Their replication abilities are per planet, so you can easily blow past your caps with these.  Split 'em in half and bring some along for a fight, send half back to the Whipping Boy and repeat.  They'll lay waste to your energy supply if you're not careful though.

AI: Primary targets.  They die easily enough if you concentrate on them, but if you don't they can easily get out of hand and do way more damage then they should have.  Also, watch for waves of them because like any other melee, they can get under your FFs and chew through anything you really wanted to protect.  Gravity is your best bet.

Younglings
Player: Younglings (Command, Nanoswarm, Tiger, Vulture, and Weasel) really could have a dissertation.  They're suicide ships with incredibly low costs to their power, but they constantly degrade over 4 minutes till they die.  You can build support structures for them to regenerate them but that's the only way they heal outside of level II transports.  Used as a 'streaming offense' if you've got a strong econ, they can sandpaper away just about any system.  As a standard fleet ship they leave a lot to be desired and in most cases should be left on the whipping boy.

AI: Bwahahaha, yeah, right.  They're really only threats when they're launched in reaction to something (certain AIs get special fabricators) or as the roaming enclaves.  I'm not even sure the AI can get these as a standard fleet ship.



That about covers all the standard fleet ships you can pull out as per the ShipDataFull I pulled off 5.021.  I'm looking forward to the discussion.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 04:09:21 pm by GUDare »
... and then we'll have cake.

Offline Catma

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2012, 04:33:22 am »
Just gonna make some comments:

Armor - I wound up with some of these from a fab. I lost that game assaulting a homeworld shortly after, and savescummed it, capped out the armors, and threw them through the wormhole first. I'm not sure how much damage they absorbed, or how they fared against the minefields, or if the AI keeps focusing them after the rest of your fleet follows through. I do know that I kept a lot more of my fleet alive and won the assault the second time around.

Beam Frigates - I'm going to need like a diagram to demonstrate proper screening of these. I just tried them out and found them extremely hard to use. Their relatively low damage makes you REALLY want to hit a lot of targets with them, but... they get focused and die when you get too close in. It's tough just to maneuver them around to maximise their use, let alone keeping other ships fronting for them in the right spot. If you use pause-micro you can do it...

Parasites - My absolute favorite unit. Just keep a bunch of these with your fleet. Possibly late game it's hard to keep converted targets alive, but these units are a godsend early. I take them as my first assault team, with a few frigates or bombers for backup and maybe a light starship. You don't even have to build the rest of your fleet. The low numbers of enemy ships in the early game make them extremely likely to be unable to kill off their converted friends. You can really feel the boost to your economy that comes from the reclaimed units. I play 7/7 though, maybe it's a different story higher up. Shouldn't be though...

Offline PokerChen

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2012, 07:13:47 am »
Ships currently missing from OP:

Force-field bearers
Description: Low ship cap (24 normal) with a small-size force-field.
Role: Ally-protection (force-field).
Tactics: A cap of these is enough to protect a fraction of our fleet from harm in the starting stages of battle. Use group-move with a separate group if you really want to emphasise the utility of the ship. When entering hostile wormholes, send these in at the head of an invading fleet to absorb the initial alpha-strike from defenders.
 Example: Cover your command stations and fabricators in an emergency when FFs are failing. A set of markI + markIIs with a Botnet golem can potentially cover you for up to a few thousand convertible ships.

Okay, commentaries:
In general, I think we can categorise ships into primary niches they fill.


I'll concentrate on the zenith ships in this post, since I've been using alot of caches lately (cracked two mark-Vs in the last game, giving me an OP-amount of fleet power).

Beam-frigates
Role: Aoe-attack (line)
Tactics: Fantastic when well-placed. Also fantastic when you have first-strike, such as wormhole defense and knowledge raiding. This is because they (unlike lasers *sigh* and bullets) hit instantly and damages their targets when they are still clustered together. The following observation requires testing, but in such cases you should be able to get the incoming attack before half have even started firing.
 If you ever happen to use mercenaries, pair these with mercenary bombers to equalise your m+c usage. They're always better than missile frigates.

Chameleons
NB: They are fairly good force-multipliers on top of a fleet or on top of a defense, because they have guaranteed first-strike as bombers, whereas normal bombers tend to get shot down earlier. Don't expect these guys to fight well on their own - this isn't their job. Imagine their role as a part of your fleet hidden in an asteroid belt until required.

Electric Bombers
 Initial-unlock notes: They don't usually survive in the early-game as electric bombers get focussed worse than bombers. For the expensive investment, you probably won't see much use until later stages of the game where they (1) will survive enough to do the damage, or (2) can get rebuilt quickly.
Hard-countered by bombards and other heavy-hitting long range ships, as the 1-HW player cannot field enough of them to close.


Mirrors
Role: Ally-protection (diversion), counter-attack.
Tactics: These units are very high on the target list for most enemy ships, so you can effectively use these to temporarily divert attention away from other targets that are otherwise more vulnerable. Overall more offensive than shield bearers and make for better inclusion in a main fleet, although expect to dedicate your resources to rebuilding these.

Polarizers
 Aside from fortresses to whom polarisers don't last, there aren't enough high-armoured AI-vessels in the game to make a difference. One can readily unlock another ship over these. Useful if your AI is packing space-tanks, etc. but won't catch things like a raid-starships. With the eventual changes in armour-mechanics, these ships may become more useful.
 ...if the AI can pack fortified-FFs on the other hand... *runs off to mantis* ;D

= = =

Spire gravity-ripper
NB: Although they might be similar, these are NOT gravity drains. While gravity-drains hard-counter blade-spawners and melee ships by slowing them, rippers do not. Rippers are generalist soft counters emphasising the paralysis attack, and should be treated more like riot-control tazers (albeit too weak in 5.024 to pick them over the gravity draining cousin).

Comment for balance: They could probably get 4000x2 or 2000x4 instead of 8000 to emphasise the paralysing nature of the ship.

Mercenaries
Note: These are you definite go-to resource at the times you run out of things to build. I disagree with OP with their use - coupled with a proper defensive fleet they add a significant amount of firepower, and you should lose very little of these ships while there are lower-mark equivalents in the same fleet.

Offline zoutzakje

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2012, 07:58:26 am »
The blade spawner is not as dangerous in AI hands early game as you think. Anything with gravity effect pretty much makes them useless. So defending against them is easy, just attacking a world with a bunch of blade spawners on it can be somewhat tougher.
Also, I often use Bulletproof fighters as my starting bonus ship type. On higher difficulties you sometimes get a wave of bombers early game that's to much to handle for your regular fighters alone. Add some bulletproofs in it and they'll die quickly.
Any low cost/low spawn time ship can be very useful. Take Laser Gatlings for example. Unlock mark I-III, build a few docks, have all your engineers assist them, and keep spewing them out. I once destroyed a dif 7 homeworld like this. It took a long time yes, but the victory was flawless.
haven't got much to say about most others... they all have their uses, it's just a matter of finding them.

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2012, 10:02:12 am »
Good stuff :)

Bulletproof
Player: Meh.  It's a ship.
Is it possible to have too many fighters? :)  Particularly ones that are a bit tougher with a few extra perks.

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Chameleon
Player: I've heard rumors these are good.  I've yet to see it.  They're basically bigger bombers with a cloak when they don't move.
Is it possible to have too many bombers?

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Electric Shuttle
Player: B class ship, mostly used for mob control.  There's a cap on how many will fire within a system inside of its reload time, so only keep your highest marks with you.
FYI, the per-planet stagger is also per-mark, same deal with lightning turrets.

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Electric Bomber
Player: Bomber's big daddy, just with a low cap.  Expensive, slow, and you might as well just cap bombers.
Moar Bombers!

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Grenade Launcher
Player: One of the few true AoE ships available
Just making sure you know: each shot can hit a max of 8/10/12/14/16 targets.  At this point I think the only "true aoe" (no cap other than range) remaining is martyrs and lightning turrets.

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Raider
Player: Just another ship, really.  Decent range and good speed, weak hp.

AI: More targets, woot!  They're a win when the AI gets them since it reinforces on ship count not cap count.
Reinforcement multiplies base values by ship cap multiplier, actually.  I've been thinking about putting in a similar logging feature for reinforcements as for waves so that can be less transparent for folks who care; just haven't done it since that could add a fairly large amount of logging.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2012, 11:27:27 am »
I think ship descriptions should be in a positive light.  A new player who reads a description for a ship they just got from an ARS that says, "eh, basically this sucks" is going to be turned off and not really try and have fun with it.  I read a lot of negative things about teleporting units and I have found the TBS extremely useful, but I was upset when I unlocked it initially thinking I had gotten a "worthless" unit.  The more I play with the different units, the more useful I find them.

The description should be useful and when possible, inspire.  For example:

Bulletproof
In Brief: A more durable version of the Standard Fighter with immunities that make it ideal against certain units and in some specialized roles.

Overall superior to the Standard Fighter in durability, the Bulletproof is also immune to Shell ammunition making it impossible for Standard Fighters to attack it.  Interestingly, the Bulletproof uses Shell ammo itself so Bulletproofs cannot attack each other.  In total, a quarter of all fleet ships use Shell ammunition, as do Light, Leech, and Riot Control Starships.  Also, most reclamation units use Shell ammunition, including the Core Leech Guard Post.   In addition to immunity to Shells, the Bulletproof is immune to Ion Cannon weapons and similar instant-kill attacks, making it an ideal escort for Starships when operating around enemy Ion Cannons.  With the same damage bonuses as the Standard Fighter, the Bulletproof is especially helpful against Bomber waves.  Although the Bulletproof does not have the Standard Fighter's steep resource discount, it is still fairly cheap and it does have the same low energy requirements.

AI: In addition to immunity to your Fighters, the Bulletproof is immune to Basic Turrets.  Without a Botnet Golem or Spire Teleporting Leeches, Bulletproofs are also effectively immune to reclamation due to their Shell immunity.  If you have access to Teleporting Leeches, Bulletproofs make good targets for reclamation.  This is especially true during a wave when reclaimed Bulletproofs cannot be shot at by the enemy units and you will be able to gather and repair all your captures safely.

EDIT: Added summary.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 01:27:36 pm by Hearteater »

Offline keith.lamothe

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2012, 12:23:09 pm »
Bulletproof
Overall superior to the Standard Fighter in durability, the Bulletproof is also immune to Shell ammunition making it impossible for Standard Fighters to attack it.  Interestingly, the Bulletproof uses Shell ammo itself so Bulletproofs cannot attack each other.  In total, a quarter of all fleet ships use Shell ammunition, as do Light, Leech, and Riot Control Starships.  Also, most reclamation units use Shell ammunition, including the Core Leech Guard Post.   In addition to immunity to Shells, the Bulletproof is immune to Ion Cannon weapons and similar instant-kill attacks, making it an ideal escort for Starships when operating around enemy Ion Cannons.  With the same damage bonuses as the Standard Fighter, the Bulletproof is especially helpful against Bomber waves.  Although the Bulletproof does not have the Standard Fighter's steep resource discount, it is still fairly cheap and it does have the same low energy requirements.

AI: In addition to immunity to your Fighters, the Bulletproof is immune to Basic Turrets.  Without a Botnet Golem or Spire Teleporting Leeches, Bulletproofs are also effectively immune to reclamation due to their Shell immunity.  If you have access to Teleporting Leeches, Bulletproofs make good targets for reclamation.  This is especially true during a wave when reclaimed Bulletproofs cannot be shot at by the enemy units and you will be able to gather and repair all your captures safely.
That does help show what it's good for, rather than what it's not.  Though some honest analysis of "should you be happy when you get this?" is helpful both for players and for the developers.  I think in a lot of cases "this unit sucks" means the player simply hasn't found their use, but in some cases it just really does suck :)

Another thing is that having a really brief summary line for each before getting into the details would help.
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Offline chemical_art

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2012, 01:07:04 pm »
If necessary, there could be a toggle on some menu for asking extended vs. simplified descriptions.
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2012, 01:27:46 pm »
Summary added.

Offline Wanderer

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2012, 02:44:39 pm »
My impression was this was to be a discussion more on starting ship selection then on the 'luck of the draw' from an ARS.  If you luck of the draw a ship, you're stuck with it.  It's not like you really get an option.  At that point you just use it as well as you can. 

As to my opinions on a lot of these ships, well, there's a reason it's up for discussion and community input and I'm not in a vacuum.  My play style is rather... warped... you might say. 

I will do my utter best to be unbiased.  I will not promise success.

So, to the comments:
Is it possible to have too many fighters? :)  Particularly ones that are a bit tougher with a few extra perks.
Is it possible to have too many bombers?
It's not a question of too many fighters or bombers, it's a question (to me!) of do they add value to your fleet as a different starting ship or are they the equivalent of a repeat?  I realize no two ships are exactly alike but some are similar enough that you won't notice the difference unless you need a particular attack bonus in volume.

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FYI, the per-planet stagger is also per-mark, same deal with lightning turrets.
Heh, whoops.  I knew that.  I blame the hour of the night I finished typing this up.  Sorry.

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Moar Bombers!
Slow, easily CF'd bombers.

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Grenade Launcher
Player: One of the few true AoE ships available
Just making sure you know: each shot can hit a max of 8/10/12/14/16 targets.  At this point I think the only "true aoe" (no cap other than range) remaining is martyrs and lightning turrets.
A poor turn of phrase. I didn't know the exact counts but I knew it was limited.  I'll make sure that's in an update.

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Reinforcement multiplies base values by ship cap multiplier, actually.  I've been thinking about putting in a similar logging feature for reinforcements as for waves so that can be less transparent for folks who care; just haven't done it since that could add a fairly large amount of logging.
Hunh.  It might be that the little ships are less noticeable then when I run into 15+ honeycombs/maws on a planet that's all out of whack that I made that assumption.  I guess rounding to <1 = 1.  I'll edit where I made those comments.

Just gonna make some comments:

Armor - I wound up with some of these from a fab. I lost that game assaulting a homeworld shortly after, and savescummed it, capped out the armors, and threw them through the wormhole first. I'm not sure how much damage they absorbed, or how they fared against the minefields, or if the AI keeps focusing them after the rest of your fleet follows through. I do know that I kept a lot more of my fleet alive and won the assault the second time around.

At MK V I'd agree, they'll make an excellent beachhead.  At MK 1/2?  What are your experiences with them there?  I purposely avoided things like the Warbird which are Fab built because they're not starter ships and thus not part of a 'standard' strategy.

Ships currently missing from OP:

Force-field bearers
Description: Low ship cap (24 normal) with a small-size force-field.
Role: Ally-protection (force-field).
Tactics: A cap of these is enough to protect a fraction of our fleet from harm in the starting stages of battle. Use group-move with a separate group if you really want to emphasise the utility of the ship. When entering hostile wormholes, send these in at the head of an invading fleet to absorb the initial alpha-strike from defenders.
 Example: Cover your command stations and fabricators in an emergency when FFs are failing. A set of markI + markIIs with a Botnet golem can potentially cover you for up to a few thousand convertible ships.

Will add, good catch.  Another sleep deprived moment.

The blade spawner is not as dangerous in AI hands early game as you think. Anything with gravity effect pretty much makes them useless. So defending against them is easy, just attacking a world with a bunch of blade spawners on it can be somewhat tougher.
It's when you're on offense that they're so much of a pain.  I thought I was clearer on that.  I'll make sure to clarify.

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Also, I often use Bulletproof fighters as my starting bonus ship type. On higher difficulties you sometimes get a wave of bombers early game that's to much to handle for your regular fighters alone. Add some bulletproofs in it and they'll die quickly.
Hm, interesting.  They aren't immune to bomber fire are they?  If they aren't, wouldn't any ship with a high anti-poly bonus be as effective?  The bulletproof itself I'm not sure is the key to your defense strategy.

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Any low cost/low spawn time ship can be very useful. Take Laser Gatlings for example. Unlock mark I-III, build a few docks, have all your engineers assist them, and keep spewing them out. I once destroyed a dif 7 homeworld like this. It took a long time yes, but the victory was flawless.
That's almost Youngling territory for suicide usage, which are priced better for their damage quotient in a streaming assault like that.  I don't know if I'd want to recommend weaker, permanent ships for attacks of that nature.  Opinions?

I think ship descriptions should be in a positive light.  A new player who reads a description for a ship they just got from an ARS that says, "eh, basically this sucks" is going to be turned off and not really try and have fun with it. 

Fair, but it's not always true.  One of the things I want to do is compare ships to *each other* in their value.  So, me saying a ship is less than worthy is in cost/versatility/usage compared to something else.  Rose colored glasses in these cases I feel will hurt new players.  If they ARS up a weaker ship they should know that, particularly before spending K to upgrade it in place of something else they may have.

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I read a lot of negative things about teleporting units and I have found the TBS extremely useful, but I was upset when I unlocked it initially thinking I had gotten a "worthless" unit.  The more I play with the different units, the more useful I find them.
Fair enough, I'm not well practiced with them since the idea of a raider that has a hard time raiding (electric minor ammo immunities on most posts) annoys me.  That and their suicidal nature when I try to include them in the fleet ball instead of micro'ing them.  I'd be more than happy to learn something in their regard and include it in the base description on the main post.

I'll edit the main post shortly to include the discussion so far.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 02:47:34 pm by GUDare »
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Offline Hearteater

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 03:51:15 pm »
I don't think the unit descriptions should be starting ship or ARS focused.  It should be equally valuable to a player in both of those situations.

Also, let's not forget about this thread for all our under-whelming ship types.

Offline chemical_art

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 04:06:55 pm »
I don't know where else to put this:

nenzul tigers shouldn't be called the tanks of the younglings but rather the bomber version of it

EDIT: They have neither the greatest health nor armor, but at the same time it is enough for their handy bonuses and firepower.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 05:09:26 pm by chemical_art »
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Offline junkdog

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 04:22:02 pm »
Nice post!

Autocannon
Player: Meh.  The Cloaking helps you deep raid but they're only good for 1 or 2 guardposts before they're reduced to too few to be worthy.  Shots and hull are weak but you get a ton of them.  They tear down armor when used en-masse though so anything they're shooting at eventually dies a horrible death.

Their huge cap make them very good for raiding heavily fortified systems; very useful when you want to save some Ion Cannons for yourself. And much cheaper than replacing the losses a more general fleet makeup would suffer.

In my last game, the second AI homeworld was (felt) impenetrable, but after several dozen transports I managed to sneak in full cap of autocannons - a full cap can take out pretty much any single core guardpost, except beam guardposts.

Offline TechSY730

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 04:45:22 pm »
This post shows off that there are still some moderate balance issues with fleet ships. A disturbingly large percentage of them are vastly underwhelming in human hands. A decent percentage of them you laugh at their under-performance whether in human or AI hands

I will have to agree about Z bombards being near broken when in AI hands. Not sure what we can do about that short of nerfing them altogether, for both humans and AI (with appropriate resource cost reductions, of course).

EDIT: I do realize though that not everyone is looking for the same thing in a ship. Some people like having a ship that does great in a specific, but small, nitch. They can handle the micro needed to make them pay off. Others would rather have ships that, although may not do so well in some odd circumstances, and may not do as well as specialized ships in many circumstances, in the "weighted average" of cases, they perform much better than specialized ships.
Some prefer durability, others prefer DPS, others prefer raw damage per salvo, other prefer range.

I realize this, and what may be underwhelming with one human's play-style may be awesome with another human's play-style. This is one of the reasons balancing a large number of different units each geared towards specific goals or play-styles is so difficult.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 04:50:25 pm by techsy730 »

Offline Hearteater

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Re: The Ship Strategy Conversation
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 04:59:38 pm »
You know in my current game the enemy has bombards, and maybe it is because it is a Zenith Descendant and so has access to all the Zenith ships, but I honestly don't really find them that rough.  Part of it may be that Teleport Battle Stations, which I got in my first ARS, own them.  But even then, they are annoying, but so are plenty of other ships.  In my AAR I get hit by an early wave of them and you can see the math on the optimal way to absorb their opening attack.  They never got a second one.

Actually, Beam Frigates are (were, before their range got reduced) worse in my opinion.  Nothing countered them.  They are AOE ships that ignore AOE immunity.  My loses to them were always higher than Bombards.  Also, I think we really want to get a lot of the underwhelming stuff into the other thread I linked above.