Author Topic: Struggling a bit.  (Read 2675 times)

Offline Montaire

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Struggling a bit.
« on: May 07, 2010, 12:36:27 pm »

Hey there, long time lurker popping his head up a for a few questions :

Riot Starships : These seem very specialized, I have not yet found a way to use them effectivly. Any tips ?

Shields : Am I the only one that puts a shield up at nearly every Command Post ? They seem to be the absolute 'go to' technology.

Special Units : Is there a way to dictate which special units I get ? I want to play on different maps, but I really do enjoy specific special units and would like to play with them.

Finally, Teleport Battle-stations, am I missing something or are these the most awesome unit, basically, ever ? I've played probably a dozen games to completion on AI level 7-8, usually 2 player games with no handicaps and in every one of those games Teleport Battle-stations were absolutely vital.

With one player tasked as "Support" and one as "Offense" the support player gets his allotment of the Teleporters and a HUUUGE chunk of the defense is essentially done. These things can handle just about any T1 raid, and can often handle 1,500 T1 ships in a CPA.

Why would you ever NOT want these ? We once did two homeworlds each, and I had Teleport Battle-stations and Teleport Raiders. It was god-like. I could respond to threats in nearly any system in 10 seconds, and with even reasonable micro I smashed a 2,000 ship CPA.

Offline x4000

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Re: Struggling a bit.
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2010, 12:59:05 pm »
Welcome to the forums!  To your questions/comments:

Riot Starships: these are generally great for burning out the engines of huge fleets of enemy ships.

Force Fields ("shields" refers to something very different in AI War): I put them up on the front lines planets sometimes, and I almost always have a pair over my home plant.  I only sometimes unlock even mark II FFs, though, because of the knowledge cost.  Force fields are certainly very useful, but their importance goes way down if you have really effective wormhole defenses in the first place, as nothing is then even getting to your command stations. 

I see FFs as being sort of a second line of defense to protect against breakthrough attacks from the AI, and so I only build them where that seems to be a risk or on things that are absolutely critical (over advanced factories or the home command station).  Usually that's 5 or less FFs for me, even with two over my home command station.  But there's no one way to play, so your way is just as valid!  Some people are more defensively-oriented than others.

Tele-Stations: Yeah, they are pretty awesome for sure, but they're only "must have" if you build all your defensive habits around them.  They pretty well stink for offense, so if you're used to building effective turret defenses, then you wouldn't have nearly so much interest in tele-stations because you'd prefer something that excels at offense.  Granted, they're an awesome unit in general because they can free up knowledge/resources for other ships to go on offense, but they're by no means the best unit in the game or even close, I wouldn't say. 

It's really hard to ascribe a general "best" unit (by design) because they all fit different play styles, etc.  My guess is that you're used to them, so a lot of your strategies and general build path really relies on them, so you particularly feel their lack when you play without them.  That's sort of the rut that I got into with Age of Empires III, where I really felt the lack of the French economy and musketeers/cavaliers combo every time I played something different.  Those sorts of ruts and habits are something that AI War intentionally tries to break players out of.  Speaking of...

Controlling Special Units: You can choose your starting unit(s) in the galaxy map in the lobby by clicking those planets, but that's it. Once the game has started, you get random stuff.  Here's why, but it basically stems from the problem you are having with tele-stations, and my problem with the French in AOEIII.

Yes, I view your reliance on tele-stations as a problem, as it essentially shrinks the scope of the game for you by a vast amount.  The game is balanced so that tele-stations aren't a killer unit any more than parasites or space planes are (though some people have trouble living without them), but it asks for different strategies when you have (or don't have) specific units in your mix.

If always playing with tele-stations is fun for you, go for it -- I'm not here to tell people how to play, and that's why it lets players pick their starting unit in the lobby.  But once the game has started and you've got that initial bit of customization, it makes everyone have to think on their feet and experiment with new units for their own good.  You might find some unit that you like even better than tele-stations, and for entirely different reasons, that way.  That's the goal, anyway!

Hope that helps!
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Offline Montaire

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Re: Struggling a bit.
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2010, 01:25:38 pm »
On variety :

I took the time to read your argument and think about it. In the end, I agree with you. You've inspired me to play a few games with new special units.

On Riot Starships : I shall give this a shot, see how it goes.

On Another Topic :

Is it possible to do something so your ships ignore allied rally points ?

Is the Ship Data XML file available for download ?


Offline Kjara

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Re: Struggling a bit.
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2010, 01:52:46 pm »
My experience is that Riots do extremely well with other long ranged ships(z bombards, deflector drones, anti-armors, etc), since the riots help you kill stuff before it gets into range to be able to target you. 

The big problem I have with riots(and pretty much any other starship--but to a slightly lesser degree with riots), is that they are guarenteed to be mostly useless for the end game push (since all of the end game planets are guarenteed to have mass drivers).  The one plus riots have over other starships is they make decent defensive units at least.

Offline Montaire

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Re: Struggling a bit.
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2010, 02:18:07 pm »
Yeah, that does seem odd. Is it possible a left over from when starship boosts were a bit over powered ?

I'm playing in a game right now with 2 x 7.6 AI's. One of them is a class that puts Mass Drivers on nearly every planet, the other is an experimentalist. It's rough. 

Is the ship XML file available for download somewhere ?


My experience is that Riots do extremely well with other long ranged ships(z bombards, deflector drones, anti-armors, etc), since the riots help you kill stuff before it gets into range to be able to target you. 

The big problem I have with riots(and pretty much any other starship--but to a slightly lesser degree with riots), is that they are guarenteed to be mostly useless for the end game push (since all of the end game planets are guarenteed to have mass drivers).  The one plus riots have over other starships is they make decent defensive units at least.

Offline x4000

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Re: Struggling a bit.
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2010, 02:21:57 pm »
On Riots, and starships in general on the final planets: It's expected that you'll raid the mass drivers before sending in the starships.  The mass drivers are there specifically to prevent starship rushing on the later planets, but with an AI that uses mass drivers all over the place that's probably a shield ninny or similar.

For the Ship data xml, we don't have that anywhere for direct download, you can quickly generate that yourself in seconds: http://arcengames.com/mediawiki/index.php?title=AI_War_-_Strong_Vs_Weak#Exporting_Raw_Bonuses
Have ideas or bug reports for one of our games?  Mantis for Suggestions and Bug Reports. Thanks for helping to make our games better!

Offline Kjara

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Re: Struggling a bit.
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2010, 03:11:19 pm »
On Riots, and starships in general on the final planets: It's expected that you'll raid the mass drivers before sending in the starships.  The mass drivers are there specifically to prevent starship rushing on the later planets, but with an AI that uses mass drivers all over the place that's probably a shield ninny or similar.

Oh I know thats the point of the mass drivers, but I generally find its not really that much harder and far more efficient to just rush the command center.  Thus my starships get put on defensive duty for the end game (and since turrets have high range, and riots work best with long range stuff, they tend to be the most overall useful starships).

I think its peacemaker that uses the mass drivers everywhere.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 03:18:06 pm by kjara »

Offline Montaire

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Re: Struggling a bit.
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2010, 03:12:36 pm »
Yeah, It's a slow afternoon at work and I have all sorts of analysis tools here. I do pricing analysis for a large logistics / freight company. Don't have a license to use any of the nifty stuff at home :~)

I'll try and snag it next week on a USB.

I bet there's ALL SORTS of awesome data in there.

The AI randomness has defiantly been interesting. The difference between a Alarmist and Fortress Baron and Zenith etc certainly makes it crazy.

I think its a Peace Maker.

Whats a Shield Ninny ?


Offline orzelek

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Re: Struggling a bit.
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2010, 03:49:12 pm »

Whats a Shield Ninny ?


Thats annoying thing with shield booster ships and planetary shield boosters (and shield strippers I think?) all over the place.

Offline Winter Born

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Re: Struggling a bit.
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2010, 04:52:30 pm »
Riot lvl 2 are a great wormhole defender when all 3 are togerther and equiped with the tazer. They paralize virtualy everything coming thru. You can tease the AI into attacking thru the wormhole and they make a great trap. Add a leach or parasites and it is bonus time with free ships.

In a more open setting I will kite the riots around to knock out the engines of the incoming swarm. Then stand off ships or the riots can finish off the engine dead attackers at leisure.

rubikscube

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Re: Struggling a bit.
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2010, 07:40:00 pm »
riots are great for engine burning is true, plus some leeches help great for taking over an enemy fleet